Vices and Virtues

**drone** · 11-06-2009, 16:58

Some VnVs do have triggers, some are random. The VnVs that heirs get when they mature are a bit of a mystery. I think many of them depend on the size of the kingdom and the VnVs and general competence of the faction leader.

I think most of the VnVs that heirs/generals acquire as they age have triggers, either due to their actions/inactions or side effects of the empire's success. Jxrc put together a nice PDF with trigger observations in this thread (last post). I haven't had a chance to update the VnV wiki page yet with the info though.

Welcome to the .Org, Tirpitz!

**Tirpitz** · 11-07-2009, 07:42

Thank you very much drone, interesting reads. I guess there is no real surefire way to prevent heirs from picking up negative vices, but that wikipage is a very useful resource.

Ill just have to train up an assassin to 3 or 4 stars and snuff out my next in line, my Doges second son is a numerate hedonist, not exactly ideal qualities in a leader but ill take it

**sharpshooter** · 11-07-2009, 17:59

Ah, VnV's - the mysterious VnV's. It's a big subject. What I have to say is based on many many observations, so is considered, but naturally isn't guaranteed as 100%. Anyone, please correct me if I'm way out. My strong impression is that the AI supports a style of play - minimalist and chivalrous, and macho.

Your problem with Hedonism and Perversion was probably from your alliance strategy, especially staying allied to the HRE, a natural enemy. I'm guessing the AI calculates you're passing up opportunities in order to keep things "going smoothly".

Hedonism results from wanting "the easy life", i.e. not taking opportunities for conquest, and from accepting or trying to make alliances with states you could be fighting. Hedonism evolves into Sybarite if you keep this strategy up.

Perversion seems to come from trying to ally with people who should be rivals. For example, as the Italians, you shouldn't ally with the HRE or the Byzantines in particular, and if you do you should take the first opportunity to get out of it. I've also wondered if Perversion also comes from changing the presented build strategy for a territory. For example, as the Italians the build strategy for Venice should be for knights and the offices of state, not commercial.

The HRE wants Venice and the other Italian states that once belonged to the empire historically. Again, historically the Doge of Venice hijacked the 4th crusade to sack Constantinople, against the Pope's instructions. He didn't seem to mind being excommunicated as a result. This event fatally weakened the Byz empire, which never recovered even though they retook Constaninople some 50 years later.

If you were given opportunities to break your alliance with the HRE and didn't take them, or have been trying to ally with the Byzantines then you are both seeking the easy life, and perverting the the "natural order" of rivals. This may also include the Hungarians (since you have Serbia, which they want), the French, and the Spanish (who are natural rivals for North Africa). The Pope too is not a natual ally, and he will break the alliance at some point and attack Venice, or less likely Tuscany or Naples which you now have.

Planning to crusade to Egypt from the start is a difficult choice for the Italians. I'd guess you need some more intermediate steps. If you have Naples you should take Sicily, which is fabulously wealthy when developed and trading. Warning: this will increase the Pope's desire to break with you, which is guaranteed if Italy becomes successful. Crusade first to Tunisia and Algeria, which will make the Spanish hate you, and, of course, upset Egypt. The Spanish will probably try to leapfrog you by sending crusades to Egypt, mopping up your armies in North Africa along the way, and cutting you off from the rest of the middle east. So, once you start you need to have a couple of crusades ready. Moving quickly will also increase your chances of Killer Instinct.

The AI Italy uses its fleets to convoy troops to attack any rebel territory within reach, and to attack the weak. If unchecked they will take Scotland, Norway, Ireland and even Livonia like this while building up huge fleets. They often attack Spain - Valencia, Granada and Portugal are the first targets. This offers the player Italy one path. Another path is to attack north into Tyrolia and Austria (bringing Switzerland and Swiss Halberdiers within reach).

Heirs characteristics are very very hard to engineer. Some are easier - if you want lots of stars then do lots of conquest before the heir matures. I once got a series of 6, 7 and finally an 8 star heir when in continuous conquest late in an HRE campaign.

Of course, they are very important. Lots of vices = lower influence = lower loyalty of generals and territories. The default influence is 3. If your new king has good virtues and acumen then he'll get 4. If he has the worst vices and no acumen he'll get 2, regardless of ruling a huge empire. If my heir comes out with Strange, Drinker or Chinless Wonder I try to get rid of him by sending him on lone attacks, or to sack a castle alone. I refuse the ransom if he's captured. At worst, keep him in the king's stack, so that Strange doesn't become Cracked, or Chinless become Odd Number of Toes.

The VnV's you asked about are the harder to figure. My impression after 100's of campaigns is that many are based on the style of play. The AI rewards mimimalist and chivalrous behaviour, and punishes bullying and overdoing troops, money, building etc (do you really need a 4th Master Spearmaker, or to increase your profits from 40,000 to 50,000 florins per turn?) It is also, for want of a better word, macho. Always fight the invasion no matter the odds. Always sack the castle (which, done with minimal numbers, reduces the number of buildings destroyed compared to a big assault, or letting the castles fall).

Drinker is the result of building too many troops. The AI is minimalist, so one unit of Chivalric Knights is a lot as far as it is concerned. Lean and mean is the order of the day. Drinker evolves to Alcoholic if you keep building troops the AI thinks you don't need. If you've been getting Drinker for generals then don't build any troops for a round or two before the heir matures.

Materialist, Greed and Gluttony comes from making money you don't need - by taking territories you don't need and pushing your fleets out to trade with everyone (which also upsets the locals to see your ships of their coasts). This is a pre-capitalist society founded on power and glory, not finance. And, do you really need to take Corsica?

Lazy evolves from Pride. This comes from either not conquering when you have the opportunity, or from overwhelming the opposition by sheer numbers. The AI wants you to be chivalrous - give the enemy a chance. It mostly does the same. The numbers you invade with should be balanced against the force you are attacking. If you don't you may get Lazy from Pride, or it may evoke Chinless Wonder. On the reward side, if you attack with less than your opposition (which includes how powered up your troops are - so 5 units of Halberdiers vs 10 units of peasants is still not a fair fight) then you rapidly get the Skilled, Expert and Specialist Attacker virtues.

Incest comes from marrying your Princess to her brother, the heir. You can do this in desperation if no one will marry into your family, and was a historical feature (notably with the Merovingians, from a period a bit before this one). The AI will warn you that it's inappropriate, and if you go ahead then again, keep the Prince under the King's stack so it doesn't become public. Sometimes you can use it to increase loyalty of an about to rebel Prince who is far away, and can't be brought back under a higher starred general. (Having spies in all your territories will warn you about impending rebellions).

Honest is usually to do with alliances and intentions. You refuse to ally with someone you intend to attack, and the Honest pops up. You don't attack an ally who is vulnerable, and there it is. Note, Most Honest, the evolution of this, reduces acumen. Politics is, after all, a dirty business.

Argumentative seems like a prompt to attack in a certain direction. A general nearby a neutral neighbour will suddenly get this, or an unstarred general suddenly gets Famously Brave. It may be when a new conquest gives you a border with a new neighbour, probably neutral. Sometimes it pops up when 2 high starred Princes land on the same territory, but I don't know if this one is chance.

Educated. I believe you need to have built a Church first (likewise for Eloquent). It comes from following the AI style - much of which is counter-intuitive. Attack a territory (with less than their numbers). Sack the castle. Immediately remove the starred general and reduce to the garrison to just enough to keep it at 120% Very Low. (Of course you have a spy to drop in the newly conquered territory, preferably your main man).

Don't build anything in frontier territories bordering enemies (including the rebels if enemy). Fight over them instead. Reduce the number of troops on your borders. Don't have big stacks everywhere. If the neighbour is going to attack he will anyway. One large army placed behind 3 border territories is better than 3 big armies on each territory. If you're not building anything there is nothing to lose.

Educated then seems to come often - including the positive evolution to Well and Highly. Keep building the church buildings too - I dedicate one territory to the Church, Monastery, Reliquary progression, and build a Cathedral as soon as I can. This brings lots of Eloquents too.

Having said all that, there does seem a random element. Not completely random. Conditions must be met first (for better or worse) and then there seems to be a percentage that the VnV will appear. If not this round then eventually.

The Approachable, Friendly and Charming series seem to come from putting your emmisaries in available locations, or your king in a port. Use the agents to be available and approachable. (The king is an agent - move him carefully. Try bringing him to a border territory to see what happens.) Example, if attacking next an ally or neutral then put an emissary on his border territory where his troops are. Usually he won't increase his troop numbers then, while otherwise reinforcements will rush in.

Blackmailer comes from putting spies, assassins and religious agents on other's territories. Emissaries and Princesses are ok, others are not.

Pride is the one I find most difficult to pin down. Sometimes it seems to come from building on a border with an enemy, sometimes from duplicating buildings in several territories, and sometimes from retraining troops to upgrade them. I hate it (unless in an unstarred general, of course). If you get Pride for, say, a Chivalric Man at Arms, then put him under a higher starred general and keep him there, so it doesn't evolve to Lazy.

As I said - VnV's are a big subject, and closely related to game style. I did some posts about this a few years back on the official site (which also has lists) and no agreement was reached. Hopefully there has been some progress!

:)

**gollum** · 11-07-2009, 20:46

I dont dispute your intuition sharpshooter - after all easily traceable v'n'vs like battlefield related ones do have clear targets that are related to things that happen during play (coward etc).

However, it would be hard to conclude for many of those you mention, although i would have guessed that treasury, diplomatic relations, trading status, policy,a ggressiveness relative to neighbour strength etc may be triggers to v'n'vs.

Its not clear if however all of them can be traced back deterministically to events or a semi-random (or even random!) element as mentioned by Drone is involved. Its possible that the truth may be between the two views ie both play a part.

In this light i think that a number of your conclusions can be disputed - for example i doubt that the medieval TW AI makes decisions on the number of Chivalric Knights built - although i dont discount the possibility.

And yes, welcome to the .org Tirpitz!

**drone** · 11-08-2009, 03:13

In my experience, the best solution/preventative is to continuously groom your heirs. Use your heir in campaigns, get lots of stars and good attack characteristics. When he ascends the throne, his offspring should be better, with fewer vices. Repeat with his heir, rinse, lather, repeat...

**Vantek** · 11-08-2009, 19:56

EDIT: Accident >_< Delete this?

**Vantek** · 11-08-2009, 19:58

I have to say whoever came up with the VnV is a comedic genius. My favs:

There are serious doubts about his courage in the face of the enemy. Reports of him screaming like a girl as he departed the field are not too exaggerated. His men are not inspired.

Most men manage to have eight great-grandparents, but this man has been badly short-changed!

This man's habits of dancing in moonbeams, painting his servants blue and sucking horseshoes has lead some to suspect he may be unbalanced.

Convinced that he has been made pregnant by an elephant, this man inspires nothing except pity and contempt in equal measures among his followers.

And then of course the Truly Pious Atheists, Famously Brave Cowards, Murderous Gentle Knights and so forth...