Calling out the mods.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If you guys don't want us here, how about you guys just say it. We had a moderated group requiring Appo's approval that was only used by our small group and our small group alone. No one else posted or frequented it and we left all of our craziness in the group and didn't spread it to the rest of the org. That tavern was my only way of communicating to my online friends who I have talked to for a year and a half now and now I doubt if we can get everyone back together. I really don't care if you say in it public, but I doubt you will. Come on, go ahead and admit that you guys don't want me or Meth or Aza or Subo or AP disrupting your "honorable" and "camel loving" little online community, I really don't care. I don't anyone of you will though, and I doubt this will receive any response but this getting locked and me getting banned.

[A Very Super Market]

If you want someone to be pissed at, it was Az and Subotan (And probably AP) that took it outside the bloody group.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well, you are still welcome to have a group, but I guess the craziness was a bit too crazy. Some of the mods don't like you guys, but that isn't what tosa was basing the decision on.

Can't you just make a quicktopic or something?

[Fixiwee]

AZ and Sub actually asked for it. If they wouldn't have posted their stupid links we might have gotten away with it. But drawing attention was stupid and something like that was bound to happen.

But I also disagree that Tosa and the mods are like "it's a decission and we wont allow anyone to say something about it." This has a "either you accept it or you get out" mentality.

[TosaInu]

Hello,

There are forumrules and topics about moderating the behaviour in social groups in this forum for long, very long. You don't expect me to beg you everyday to keep your group clean, do you?

By far the easiest thing is to boot the whole group, seriously. I would not need excuses if my whim told me to do so and in this case I do not need more excuses either, as the group has already provided enough. Sure, there are good discussions, but I am not going to inspect 1,000's of posts to check what can stay and what can not.

Start a new EB group, keep it tidy and all is ok.

[Crazed Rabbit]

But I also disagree that Tosa and the mods are like "it's a decission and we wont allow anyone to say something about it." This has a "either you accept it or you get out" mentality.

Indeed it does, because that's the way it is. This isn't a democracy or any sort of popular rule.

The rules are clear, and there's many ways to set up communication outside of the Org; quicktopics, VB forums, etc.

CR

[Fixiwee]

Indeed it does, because that's the way it is. This isn't a democracy or any sort of popular rule.

The function of a forum is that people comunicate with each other right?
I am allowed to state my opinion about the mods actions right?

[drone]

I am allowed to state my opinion about the mods actions right?

Yes, that is what the Watchtower is for.

Don't know the whole details, but we have had the discussion about groups and profiles before. Forum rules apply, even if there is no standard moderation. Piracy/pr0n are verboten. Language is technically against the rules, but will likely be ignored unless attention is drawn.

Sounds like rules #1 and #2 were ignored, and the discussion leaked into the main forum and attracted mod attention.

Start a new EB group, keep it tidy and all is ok.

Your crew are pretty active members, and do contribute to the community in the normal forums. Just learn to compartmentalize...

[Beskar]

There is a bottom-line and that is that there are some things that cannot do and majority of these can be enforced by the server host, so it is not even up to Tosa to decide it should be allowed or not, as it is the server policy not to have those things,

Should the forum face consequences and possibly shut down because some members couldn't behave themselves? The answer is obviously no.

TosaInu as far as I am aware, just deleted it and went "Right, just create a new one and don't let it get like that again." after there have been warning and comments all done before. One of the worse things as a staff-member is when the forum starts becoming a job rather than something you enjoy. I remember when I was a moderator, that it can easily get into the case where some things really do become a hassle and it is like some members just do it to purposely just to cause trouble.

What TosaInu might have been seen as harsh at first, but he has warned and commented on this area before and it was the members of the group that caused all the trouble who are at fault, not TosaInu and the staff-members.

As AVSM, who I believe is a Taverner pointed out:

If you want someone to be pissed at, it was Az and Subotan (And probably AP) that took it outside the bloody group.

Also drawing attention to the moderators to what was actually inside the group as well which broke a lot of the ground rules.

[Hosakawa Tito]

The function of a forum is that people comunicate with each other right?
I am allowed to state my opinion about the mods actions right?

Of course you can, within the forum rules.

AZ and Sub actually asked for it. If they wouldn't have posted their stupid links we might have gotten away with it. But drawing attention was stupid and something like that was bound to happen.

There's a lesson in there somewhere, and you people are certainly intelligent enough to figure out what it is. So, think way back when all y'all were removed from TWC. I have no real idea why, but I imagine I wouldn't be far off the mark if it happened to be under similar circumstances, right ? Don't tell me, I really don't care. That was way in the past, and we are concerned with the immediate present.

You know, it's funny. This is the only social group at the org that I am aware of that has ever been deleted. In fact, this is the only social group that I can recall with multiple reported posts for unacceptable content. Everyone else seems to be able to handle it, and I don't believe for a minute that all the other groups are 100% choir boys. However, despite that and the lack of moderator super-nannies looking over their shoulders they manage to get along here without any undue trouble.

This forum is very tolerant when it comes to allowing serious rule breakers back, more so than any other place I've ever been. However, it would be a mistake to take that as a weakness to be exploited.
I'm not speaking for Tosa or anyone else, but as far as I know and am concerned all are welcome to stay including those that are currently temporarily banned. This has always been the policy since I've been here. However, that is up to each of you. All y'all are in total control of your individual circumstances here.

[Fixiwee]

Sounds like rules #1 and #2 were ignored, and the discussion leaked into the main forum and attracted mod attention.
Your crew are pretty active members, and do contribute to the community in the normal forums. Just learn to compartmentalize...

No. Rule#1 and #2 were obeyed. There was no piracy or wares in the tavern. Just occasional bad language.

And see that's the problem. If some members of the tavern would have waved the attention flag, noone would have noticed or cared. Mods might have actually said: "they behave normal in the forum, let's let them have their place where they can blow off steam."

There is a bottom-line and that is that there are some things that cannot do and majority of these can be enforced by the server host, so it is not even up to Tosa to decide it should be allowed or not, as it is the server policy not to have those things,

Should the forum face consequences and possibly shut down because some members couldn't behave themselves? The answer is obviously no.

You are completley exaggerating. I don't believe that you have any idea why the place was deleted.

TosaInu as far as I am aware, just deleted it and went "Right, just create a new one and don't let it get like that again." after there have been warning and comments all done before. One of the worse things as a staff-member is when the forum starts becoming a job rather than something you enjoy. I remember when I was a moderator, that it can easily get into the case where some things really do become a hassle and it is like some members just do it to purposely just to cause trouble.

I'm not causing trouble, yet I am affected. That's hardly fair.

What TosaInu might have been seen as harsh at first, but he has warned and commented on this area before and it was the members of the group that caused all the trouble who are at fault, not TosaInu and the staff-members.

Contacting Appo, the group owner, upfront might have been a good idea. The whole thing was presented with a fait accompli, and we were not even allowed to complain at first. Hardly a diplomatical action, you have to anticipate negative reaction for that.

Of course you can, within the forum rules.

At first I couldn't. Tosa deleted and said there was no discussion. Topic locked after creation. Fait accompli.

There's a lesson in there somewhere, and you people are certainly intelligent enough to figure out what it is. So, think way back when all y'all were removed from TWC. I have no real idea why, but I imagine I wouldn't be far off the mark if it happened to be under similar circumstances, right ? Don't tell me, I really don't care. That was way in the past, and we are concerned with the immediate present.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The EB tavern was formed here in the org as a thread. It was closed due reasons I have no clue, because I wasn't there back then.
If you are concerened with the immediate present, why do you bring the past up. I'm not able to understand the point you are trying to make.

You know, it's funny. This is the only social group at the org that I am aware of that has ever been deleted. In fact, this is the only social group that I can recall with multiple reported posts for unacceptable content. Everyone else seems to be able to handle it, and I don't believe for a minute that all the other groups are 100% choir boys. However, despite that and the lack of moderator super-nannies looking over their shoulders they manage to get along here without any undue trouble.

Yeah. Because Aza and Sub posted links outside the tavern that drew attention. AP basicly asked to be banned aswell.
I am dead sure if those posters wouldn't have messed it up in such a short timespan, no mod would have cared for the minor slips in language there.

This forum is very tolerant when it comes to allowing serious rule breakers back, more so than any other place I've ever been. However, it would be a mistake to take that as a weakness to be exploited.
I'm not speaking for Tosa or anyone else, but as far as I know and am concerned all are welcome to stay including those that are currently temporarily banned. This has always been the policy since I've been here. However, that is up to each of you. All y'all are in total control of your individual circumstances here.

I don't see the connection here. If we all seriously broke the rules, we should get infraction points or bans. Because of language. Deleting the whole group was collective punishment that affected people who posted there and did not break any rules.

[miotas]

Fixi, I too am very dissapointed that one of my favourite places on the internet has been deleted, but it's tosa's forum, he can do whatever he feels is right. I'm more annoyed that Subo and Az went crazy and drew attention to us.

[Fixiwee]

Fixi, I too am very dissapointed that one of my favourite places on the internet has been deleted, but it's tosa's forum, he can do whatever he feels is right. I'm more annoyed that Subo and Az went crazy and drew attention to us.

As I pointed out. I am not defending their actions. That was really stupid and I don't want anything to do with it. As you know well enough that many of our members didn't agree with the concept of trolling the org.
Of course Tosa can delete anything and everything. But there is also something called empathy...

[pevergreen]

miotas you know better than that.

Its fine to do x as long as nobody finds out?

The group broke rules. The EB tavern thread in the frontroom was opened and closed a few times IIRC because of the same thing.

And see that's the problem. If some members of the tavern would have waved the attention flag, noone would have noticed or cared. Mods might have actually said: "they behave normal in the forum, let's let them have their place where they can blow off steam."

Right, so when you went to the social group, did it or did it not have forums.totalwar.org in the URL? Yes? Part of the forums. Why should the rules be different just for you in a slightly removed spot? You have the entire internet to blow off steam.

There are free to host forums! Quicktopics! Email! Maybe it didnt have the feel of the org, but the org has the feel because that stuff is not tolerated.

If a social group on a game forum was the only way you had in keeping in contact with your internet friends...you should at least had emails.

The group of you seem to be acting way under your age and normal maturity levels, however low they sometimes go for a few of you.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Obviously, no answer is going to satisfy you. I empathize with your predicament, but it is what it is.

[Fixiwee]

miotas you know better than that.

You meant me. Not Miotas.

Its fine to do x as long as nobody finds out?

Empathy.
Not everything in this world has to completly defined by rules.
So yes, if people wouldn't have acted crazy and the EB tavern would not have stirred controversity, yes, I think the mods might have not cared.
They knew what language we had for over a year now. They only warrned us when serious rules were broke like linking to warez-sites. Other then that we were fine.

I know this is a lot to take for you, but the mods did not care for months. Just until recently when some taverners started to act strange and in a nutshell asked to be banned.
Do you really think there is no connection to the missbehavior of certain members recently and the deletion of the group? It's basicly a slap in the face.

Right, so when you went to the social group, did it or did it not have forums.totalwar.org in the URL? Yes? Part of the forums. Why should the rules be different just for you in a slightly removed spot? You have the entire internet to blow off steam.

Don't sass me. You are not helping.

There are free to host forums! Quicktopics! Email! Maybe it didnt have the feel of the org, but the org has the feel because that stuff is not tolerated.

What? You think this is the only place I visit?

If a social group on a game forum was the only way you had in keeping in contact with your internet friends...you should at least had emails.

Great comment. That's helping a lot. Jesus...

The group of you seem to be acting way under your age and normal maturity levels, however low they sometimes go for a few of you.

I will not speak for the actions of others.

Obviously, no answer is going to satisfy you. I empathize with your predicament, but it is what it is.

I'm not looking for answers. I really do understand your point of view. I am just stating my resentment towards the sitatuion, which is collective punishment.
Also I felt the urge to clerify what happened, because as this thread shows some members think we are baby eating pseudo-revolutioneries that post links to sites with illegal content just to bring down the org.
We are not like that, we are mostly a cozy community who love group hugging and little bunnies.

[miotas]

miotas you know better than that.

Its fine to do x as long as nobody finds out?

The group broke rules. The EB tavern thread in the frontroom was opened and closed a few times IIRC because of the same thing.

I realise this, that is why I'm not crying out in rage like some others, but it was pretty much fine, so long as we kept to ourselves, tucked away in our strange little corner. The real reason I'm annoyed is that some went crazy and took it too far, out in the main forums. All of a sudden we couldn't be ignored any more and Tosa did what he did.

[pevergreen]

C'est la vie.

[CountArach]

If you are annoyed that people drew attention to you, then clearly you understand that whatever they drew attention to was over the line... otherwise you would have no issue with it. I'm just saying - seems a bit illogical to be using that as an argument.

[Fixiwee]

If you are annoyed that people drew attention to you, then clearly you understand that whatever they drew attention to was over the line... otherwise you would have no issue with it. I'm just saying - seems a bit illogical to be using that as an argument.

I'm not sure if you are refering to miotas or me, but I have already written in this thread:
I am not defending their actions. That was really stupid and I don't want anything to do with it. As you know well enough that many of our members didn't agree with the concept of trolling the org.

So yes. It was over the line. And I didn't agree with them in the first place.

[Csargo]

The Internet, serious business.

Honestly, I have no idea what happened, nor do I really care what you guys did to get your group deleted. What I do know is that most of you guys have provided me with much amusement over time. So I hope that all of you that have been banned get unbanned. Though I doubt my opinions matter much.

[Lemur]

I know this is a lot to take for you, but the mods did not care for months.

Actually, the EB Tavern and some of its crew have been the subject of a great deal of discussion amongst the staff over a period of months. Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The way I see it, some of the EB Taverners will stay and contribute to the Org, which is great. A few may decide that if they can't have their private place to post pictures of kittens being burned to death, they need to move on. That's fine too. The internet is big, and nobody needs to feel locked down.

Fixiwee, I'd be curious to hear what you think the Org's management should have done.

[Beskar]

The way I see it, some of the EB Taverners will stay and contribute to the Org, which is great. A few may decide that if they can't have their private place to post pictures of kittens being burned to death, they need to move on. That's fine too. The internet is big, and nobody needs to feel locked down.

I don't think I seen a lolcat picture like that before.

[pevergreen]

you knew I just re-read what i posted and am not really impressed with myself.

I have no reason to disbelieve Lemur, or Ser (below)

[Megas Methuselah]

A cat being burned to death? You've got a wild imagination, old man.

[Ser Clegane]

A cat being burned to death? You've got a wild imagination, old man.

Not really.

[Beefy187]

As far as I can see, Tosa granted EB tavern to start over again as long as they keep it clean this time.. What more do you want?

[A Very Super Market]

I feel as if we're biding our time until we can roast the three loonies.

Speaking of roasts, I'm pretty sure those kitten images were accompanied with captions of mourning, not glee. But that's all ancient history now.

Now, how do I articulate my thoughts on all this....

I must admit, we in the tavern almost perpetually toe the line between irreverency and irresponsibility. Thankfully, this goes on without harming the sanity of most outsiders, merely cultivating the existing mental illness running around in our own heads. I can't exactly apologize for anyone's conduct, as I lack the humility or awareness of the situation. What I can say is that the tavern isn't a wannabe /b/ (Wanna/b/?) out to create trouble. We're simply too lazy to do so. How people can tie those two together is beyond me. The reasons for deletion (Presumably, the sheer volume of profanity), and the reasons for the bans (Obstinance and random defiancy) are entirely separate.

As with any official-sounding statement, this is not directed t'wards anyone in particular, bla, blarh. Maybe I'm just thin-skinned enough to truly care about a misdirected opinion, but I've done my best to keep this post Sunday-School quality. Retreating back to the booze now.

[Socrates on Wheels]

I feel a need to post now, regardless of my ban. Not in order to cause trouble, but just to get my viewpoint across (And send in orders for 30YW)

If you want someone to be pissed at, it was Az and Subotan (And probably AP) that took it outside the bloody group.

If I am responsible for it being banned/destroyed, I’m sorry. I’m guessing the main reason is that I was toeing the line just generally, because I figured that the mods were OK with a little bit of harmless banter now and then (Turns out they aren’t, for some reason), and because of that post I made in the Watchtower which apparently managed to convince everyone of the opposite of what I was trying to get across. I apologise, and I’ll be more careful in the future.

If they wouldn't have posted their stupid links we might have gotten away with it. But drawing attention was stupid and something like that was bound to happen.

What stupid link did I post? Bittorrent? Considering someone was asking for advice about how to get free music over the internet, that was going to come up eventually, regardless of the forum you would have been on. If I hadn't posted it, someone else would have.

Well, you are still welcome to have a group, but I guess the craziness was a bit too crazy.

OK, fine. If people think that that was a problem, then we’ll take that on board. Me and I’m guessing the others arenot too stubborn, or too proud to take valid criticism. However, going along and saying “It was better to just burn the whole thing to ground, as it was too entrenched to edit everything” is going to annoy the people who frequent there regularly. The whole process of dealing with us has swung in a few days from not dealing with it at all to ham-fisted censorship.

Piracy/pr0n are verboten.

We totally understand that, especially the latter. A few months ago, someone did post pr0n in the EB Tavern, which was dealt with, by Appo.

So, think way back when all y'all were removed from TWC

Never happened to me. I never had an account at TWC.

A few may decide that if they can't have their private place to post pictures of kittens being burned to death

This particularly struck me. Yes, I have seen that particular sequence of pictures, but not at this forum, and the place where I did see it I go to very infrequently. And I thought it was horrific, and I would have complained, had I seen it in the EB Tavern. Like I tried to get across before, “We” don’t exist. That’s why I was using quotations marks in that post I made. Just because one member does something does not mean it is endorsed by the whole of the Tavern.

The reasons for deletion (Presumably, the sheer volume of profanity), and the reasons for the bans (Obstinance and random defiancy) are entirely separate.

100% true. You seem to have put two and three together, and come out with four.

What I do know is that most of you guys have provided me with much amusement over time. So I hope that all of you that have been banned get unbanned

This is more of a general criticism of Org policy. Have there been complaints from members of the Org about our behaviour within the Tavern? Or even outside? Has every time one of us made a post, have you been flooded with report buttons? I doubt it. We have a lot to add to the forum, and most of the time, I would say it is appreciated. Likewise, I like the Org’s set up. There are a lot of forums on the internet that suck, and I left one some time ago due to a lack of moderation. The Org’s strict policy towards many subjects is certainly a critical factor in stopping it devolving like that.
But if there is one thing worse than a forum where everybody abuses each other, it’s a forum where there is no criticism at all. There are few things more tedious than seeing a forum where a few posters with 10,000 < Posts dominate conversation, everyone slaps each other on the back when they make a reference to something mildly amusing that happened five years ago, and the ravings of the resident racists are met with an “Oh, you.”, and a roll of the eyes. New arrivals are isolated and ultimately bored, even if that is not intended.

That’s not what the Org is, and that’s not what I want it to be. But it could be. And I think acting in the way that the Mods have in the past few days is going to lead it down that road.
By banning people who are slightly more likely to be a bit more chaotic when talking amongst themselves, you are preventing those same people from participating in the main threads. You will be left with a forum that is full of boring, uninteresting people, who, although they never swear, put people off from joining the forum as much as somewhere that contains loads of swearing. By having the EB Tavern, which is a voluntary social group, you are vastly expanding your potential userbase, as people who would otherwise be a little more exciting at some times can contribute to the main forum at the same standards as everyone else. No-one is forced to join the EB Tavern, and it’s not a compulsory part of being an Orgah. If you dislike it, don’t join. It’s as simple as that. If you allow it some leniency regarding both language and moderation, you’ll have a livelier forum. Being reactionary about it isn’t going to do anyone any good.

And with regards to “Just use email/IRC/Quicktopic”; those are all amazingly impractical. With the EB Tavern, I’m surrounded by other, intelligent people, and I know that if I leave a comment, someone will reply. Sending out mass emails will kill off our friendship with one another.

[Fixiwee]

Actually, the EB Tavern and some of its crew have been the subject of a great deal of discussion amongst the staff over a period of months. Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Yeah understandable. But that is because some members drew attention. The "staff" wouldn't have cared if every member would have acted normal outside the social group.
Actually when I think of the members that constantly bragged how many infractions they have your statement here is perfectly coherent.

But the fact remains that there was not enough discussion amongst the staff to do act until some members recently were asking for the banhammer to be set in motion.

The way I see it, some of the EB Taverners will stay and contribute to the Org, which is great. A few may decide that if they can't have their private place to post pictures of kittens being burned to death, they need to move on. That's fine too. The internet is big, and nobody needs to feel locked down.

I am sorry, but that is slander. I have not seen a picture of kittens being burned in the tavern or anything like it. Such behavior is not what the EB tavern is about, nor are such people welcome there.
Like AVSM pointed out, profanity was the only rule we broke. And you know what? I can live with that and I still think it's okay within a social group if we play nice.

Fixiwee, I'd be curious to hear what you think the Org's management should have done.

No. That's not my job.
The deletion of the tavern was done.
I don't agree, though I understand the motivation to do so.
Despite it, I think this was not done in a subtle manner, but rather a show of power.
This is why I post here
I know I wont change anything.

But I can at least make you rethink what your position and that's all I ask for.
And I think to a certain agree I succeeded with that.