Effective use of chariots? (and a few other unit tips needed)

[seienchin]

I already posted my opinion to the use of the units, but I read other advises and have something to ad.


SKIRMISHER CAVALLERY:
They arent the best cavallery in melee. That is a misinterpretation of unit stats. Heavy lancers are just as good. Their unit cards just show their atack value with their lances, but not their second melee weapons. All of Ebs cavallery have them.
On the other hand lances are often AP, which makes them also quite usefull in melee.
Or in other words:
Skirmisher cavallery has no advantages over other cavallery. They are just mediocre

[Zradha Pahlavan]

Chariots: go for the flank (frontal attacks often get them stuck in enemy formations), keep the enemy cavalry away from them, and whatever you do, don't give anyone on the opposing side time to throw javelins at the chariots, since they'll drop like flies. Also, find a way to get rid of other enemy missile troops before you deploy the chariots.

Heavy peltasts are among the best and most versatile troops there are.

Skirmisher Cavalry: great against Gauls and Celts, and against most low level eastern infantry. They are also great cheap cavalry that you may find yourself needing if you ever fight against steppe horsemen.

EDIT: Scythed chariots saved my butt in my Pontic Campaign. They're the only real defense I had against the huge numbers of Successor infantry.

[Mr Frost]

I
Skirmisher cavallery has no advantages over other cavallery. They are just mediocre

Hetairoi Aspidophoroi {602 Mnai} are cheaper than lancer Hetaroi {1153 Mnai} , Lonchophoroi Hippeis {784 Mnai} , and the Thessalikoi based chargers , can park on the arse of engaged elite infantry and fill them with 600 javlins or put those javlins into elephants before they hit your line whilst still being able to beat most cavalry that can catch them .

The only real question then becomes : can you make better use of Hetairoi Aspidophoroi {with their javlins} or Prodromoi whom are only slightly cheaper ?

When you only have 2 spots left in a stack and muct choose between Hetairoi Aspidophoroi and Prodromoi , against Successor armies it makes sense to take the Aspidophoroi as pike units usually "magically" turn all their pikes to the rear when charged from behind killing your charger cavalry and can take a long time to rout {especially the elites} thus killing more so javlins to their backs {cavalry can flank much quicker and more effectivly than infantry} from a cav unit that can still quickly fight their way through most enemy cavalry and skirmishers {that get in the way of a charge} are a good companion to sarrissa armed Hetairoi .

[Brennus]

In response to the chariot tactis, i take it these tactics are also applicable to Casse chariots even though there are less heavily armed?

[WinsingtonIII]

In response to the chariot tactis, i take it these tactics are also applicable to Casse chariots even though there are less heavily armed?

Generally, yes. Your biggest goal with any chariot unit is to simply keep them moving and do not let them get bogged down at any cost. Casse chariots will not kill as many enemies as Scythed chariots do when they run through enemy units, however they will still greatly disrupt enemy formations when they knock down soldiers and they still kill cavalry quite well if you keep them running through them. I actually find Casse chariots to be more useful than Scythed chariots because they have 16 morale instead of the abysmal 6 morale of the Scythed chariots, they do not run amok, and they inspire nearby friendly troops while frightening nearby enemy infantry (even the non-bodyguard versions do this).

[vartan]

Where is Gabeed? Summer tourney in July of '09 saw great chariot usage from Gabeed and his Casse.

[SFraser]

Skirmishers + Skirmisher Cavalry:


The problem with both these units is that the basic, bottom-dollar version is useful for little more than a couple of hundred extra javalins and then numbers thrown kamikaze style into a battle you are losing. A couple of hundred extra javalins is no small benefit, but once done the unit is pretty much useless.

Once you get to mid tier versions of Skirmishers and Skirmisher Cavalry, the units become multi-purpose units, combining the speed and range and ammo quantity of the basic skirmisher with some basic and not-so-basic equipment to fulfill very useful battlefield roles. Peltastai in particular are very useful, and in practice fairly elite, units to have on a battlefield with their reasonably formation cohesion, reasonable armour/skill/shield and their swords. Numerous, manouverable and effective at hand-to-hand combat means these units in particular are key to much early Hellenic and Diadochi combat with their ability to get to key areas of the battlefield quickly and perform effectively. Thraikioi Peltastai are the elite of the middle tier with armour piercing weaponry, pretty much perfectly designed for chewing through phalanxes or isolating and defeating heavier units.

Units like Thureophoroi and Wargozez could/should also be considered skirmishers, not ineffective and numerous javalin troops, but instead highly mobile and highly effective contextual troops designed for reacting to the progress of a battle and occupying key roles at key positions at key times. That is the important aspect to realise about skirmishers, in order to understand their role on the battlefield. A skirmisher unit is not a useless unit, a frail unit, chucking javalins. A skirmisher is a crucial contextual unit.

This is why the Pheraspidai, or Peltastai Makedonikoi, is described as being both an elite, expensive assault infantry/royal guard while also being described as a skirmisher, because that is precisely what it is. Peltastai Makedonikoi and Agrianikio Pelekuphoroi are elite skirmishers with the role of decisively winning key engagements on the battlefield, even if they are against supposedly "junk" troops, in order to then win the battle as a whole.

Skirmishers do not simply throw javalins. They engage and win the key skirmishes on the battlefield open the road to victory, or atleast attempt to prevent/delay defeat. While they may not be the most expensive or impressive looking troops, they are arguably the most important in many if not all styles of combat. If I remember correctly, Alexander the Great used his heavy infantry and much of his heavier cavalry as the guards of his flanks in many battles, while he employed his Hetaroi and elite "skirmishers" to smash straight through the crucial point of the opponents line.

Whether the crucial point of the battle is on the flanks, or through the middle, or anywhere else on the field, that is where the skirmishers are to be employed defeating the opponents key detail.


As for skirmisher cavalry, the general trend is towards disrupting the opponents line with javalins, before retreating to a safe distance and then outflanking the opponents lighter troops while maybe taking part in a charge. However there are variations to this theme, and units like Argyn Marca (Caledonian Noble Cavalry) combine ranged attacks with significant melee capability through armour values and sword lethality. Argyn Marca are a cross between light and heavy cavalry, swapping spear/lance for lethal Celtic swords, capable of fulfilling the role of skirmisher cavalry to an excellent degree, disrupting the opponent with javalins and then engaging with significant staying/killing power in melee. In this respect the Argyn Marca would be the cavalry version of the Peltastai Makedonikoi.

So when looking at skirmishers, javalins are invariably plentiful but are a subsidiary concern in comparison to the actual battelfield function and capability of the unit. Speed and manouverability is a given, and indeed any unit with speed and manouverability could be argued to be a skirmisher. The crucial detail is what they can do, how they can perform in combat. Thureophoroi are skirmisher spearmen, Peltastai are skirmisher multi-purpose "jack-of-all master-of-none" medium infantry, while the Agrianikio / Thraikioi Peltastai are armour destroying, phalanx gutting skirmishers, and the Peltastai Makedonikoi are skirmishers with immense defensive capability and staying power and mass designed to bring power and stamina to all "skirmishes" no matter how large and crucial.