never seen the ai do this

[Vasiliyi]

In my AS campaign, the AI reinforcements for for my enemy decided to do the redline noob tactic. Ive never seen the AI do anything like it. Have to say that i was impressed.

[vartan]

In my AS campaign, the AI reinforcements for for my enemy decided to do the redline noob tactic. Ive never seen the AI do anything like it. Have to say that i was impressed.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Make the AI move forward by using skirmishers.

[Aemilius Paulus]

What's next, the phalanx n00b box? A pike phalanx n00b box with one phalangitai unit on top of another for double the density of pikes and some onagers in the middle?

I have seen the AI reinforcements stay right near the red line, regardless whether they were in the corner or not. Incidentally, the AI reinforcements were not in a corner of the map, not in the times they stuck close to the red line. But if they did spawn in the corner, then they would have been in the same position and formation as shown on the screenie. So at least this behaviour can be rationalised, rendering it less surprising. Still, the coincidence makes your screenie quite threatening, Vasya.

For instance, one time I was assaulting the last Qarthadastim settlement - Gader, in my first Romani campaign. The Carthies had a fullstack of mostly middle-tier Iberians with some elites as well - a formidable army, considering the powerful Iberian unit roster. However, the fullstack was right outside of the city. A five-unit cheap levy garrison + FL bodyguard kept the city itself. I had a half-stack of experienced Roman + some mercs.

In the beginning of the battle I knew I had to smash through the walls and secure the gate through which the enemy reinforcements would come. At the same time, I had to secure my rear and flanks, meaning I had to clean out the settlement before the reinforcements came. Or at least destroy enough enemy garrison units to get into the settlement and then hold off the remaining garrison with an amount of troops that would leave me with enough to repel the fullstack of horror/the reinforcements.

Long story short, the enemy horror stack (well, it wasn't that bad, I knew I would win easily, especially since all I had to do was hold one gate, but still, the sense of danger that rarely finds me in EB was there) simply lined up, with the red line right behind them. They were inside the map, inside the red lines, but just so, just as in your screenie. So I slaughtered the garrison and hunkered down to wait for an attack that never came. Yep, the Carthies just waited, and then just as I was moving out of the city to attack them, they left - retreated, despite the fact they outnumbered me quite handily, and despite the fact that reinforcement AI is supposed to be hardwired to dash like mad to the town centre, no matter what.

So the Qarthadastim were vanquished. The fullstack turned rebel, but it retained only two out of the original twenty units. Lucky me! (although I would have heartily appreciated the challenge).

[Vasiliyi]

Well, they were gonna loose anyways.

[vartan]

Well, they were gonna loose anyways.

That's my Vasi!

[Zradha Pahlavan]

I've seen the AI pull that stunt several times, actually. Weeding him out of there can be a real pain in the arse when all you have are horse archers and a bodyguard unit and he has phalangites.

[ARCHIPPOS]

In my AS campaign, the AI reinforcements for for my enemy decided to do the redline noob tactic. Ive never seen the AI do anything like it. Have to say that i was impressed.

and how is this "noob tactic" ??? i pull this trick many times if i'm grossly outnumbered thus extremely susceptible to getting flanked. I know it's kind of "cheating" but i use any edge i can find on the battlefield...

Edit: obviously with a highly mobile , light , skirmisher army against pike phallanxes (like the one pictured) getting cornered is NOT the thing to do. However i can assure you that using the battlefield corners' to defend with pike phallanxes is HIGHLY effective...

[Aemilius Paulus]

and how is this "noob tactic" ??? i pull this trick many times if i'm grossly outnumbered thus extremely susceptible to getting flanked. I know it's kind of "cheating" but i use any edge i can find on the battlefield...

You answered yourself...

"Damn it men, we are gonna be flanked by that cursed Carthiginian trader" - Marcus Terentius Varro
"Sir, our scouts report a mysterious red line that lets no mortal step over it" - Publius Cornelius Scipio (yes, he was present there, as a junior commander)
"Jupiter be praised, even the arrogant, pea-brain Varro will see the advantage in that" - Lucius Aemilius Paullus
"To the red lines!" - Marcus Terentius Varro
"Have the Romans gone mad?!? Even Varro had more with than to array his forces in such a manner!!" - Hannibal, son of Hamilcar Barca
"Fuuuuuuuuu---" - Maharbal (you can imagine how happy his cavalry would be)
"Are you sure we can retreat from this battle after we've won?" - Marcus Terentius Varro
"Yeah, just wait for the banner with our victory inscribed upon it to appear in the sky; after that we can go" - Quintus, a priest of Mars

[ARCHIPPOS]

You answered yourself...

"Damn it men, we are gonna be flanked by that cursed Carthiginian trader" - Marcus Terentius Varro
"Sir, our scouts report a mysterious red line that lets no mortal step over it" - Publius Cornelius Scipio (yes, he was present there, as a junior commander)
"Jupiter be praised, even the arrogant, pea-brain Varro will see the advantage in that" - Lucius Aemilius Paullus
"To the red lines!" - Marcus Terentius Varro
"Have the Romans gone mad?!? Even Varro had more with than to array his forces in such a manner!!" - Hannibal, son of Hamilcar Barca
"Fuuuuuuuuu---" - Maharbal (you can imagine how happy his cavalry would be)
"Are you sure we can retreat from this battle after we've won?" - Marcus Terentius Varro
"Yeah, just wait for the banner with our victory inscribed upon it to appear in the sky; after that we can go" - Quintus, a priest of Mars

pfffffff what you call cheating i call roleplay :P :P :P
My ingenious general scouted the field and picked a specific terrain that offers protected flanks (OR ordered his men to prepare hasty fortifications by their sides-wooden stakes etc) . It's the blasted RTW game mechanics that do not offer this option thus forcing me to apply the red-line "special rule" ... it's not "camping" if you call it historical accuracy :P

[Macilrille]

Well, since it is a game, and since the game often forces you to set up somewhere within the arbitrary red line that you would not really, especially with some nice terrain just outside the red line, I use it when heaviy outnumbered. Nothing wrong in that when the game prevents me from setting up on that nice, defensible piece of ground just outside it where I had planned to set up from the look of the tile I had placed myself on.

Against a human opponent it is something else. There it is unfair, for in a multiplayer game you should not be too outnumbered.

[ARCHIPPOS]

Well, since it is a game, and since the game often forces you to set up somewhere within the arbitrary red line that you would not really, especially with some nice terrain just outside the red line, I use it when heaviy outnumbered. Nothing wrong in that when the game prevents me from setting up on that nice, defensible piece of ground just outside it where I had planned to set up from the look of the tile I had placed myself on.

Against a human opponent it is something else. There it is unfair, for in a multiplayer game you should not be too outnumbered.

Precisely... aaaaaand to my defense there are plenty of cases of famous battles where such stratagems were used. For one the famous battle of Marathon where the Atheneans used rough terrain and the sea to secure their flanks against the superior Persian cavalry. Or i could mention Caesar and the famous battle of Gaergovia (he built a friggin' Maginot line there). And how abt the battle of Agincourt ??? Henry V was a CHEATING NOOOOOOOOB !!! :P

BTW the phallanx "noob box" is not so noob either... it was employed by Alexander at the battle of Gaugamela ... unless you play chess there is no "fair and square" victory :)

[Aemilius Paulus]

You already have a frackload of advantages against the chicken-brained AI (I am so sorry for insulting the representatives of Gallus gallus domesticus species). Why do you need the red line? After my two hours of micro-ing on the campaign map, per turn, the AI is so ridiculously easy to beat on the battlefield that I am insanely lucky if I lose more than a single medium/large battle to the AI in the course of a single conquer-the-world campaign. And that is on VH/M.









Fig. 1: my thoughts on the AI (above)




Fig 2: my thoughts regarding you (below)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

to Ludens: - I am not actually serious

[ARCHIPPOS]

[QUOTE=Aemilius Paulus;2430389]You already have a frackload of advantages against the chicken-brained AI (I am so sorry for insulting the representatives of Gallus gallus domesticus species). Why do you need the red line? After my two hours of micro-ing on the campaign map, per turn, the AI is so ridiculously easy to beat on the battlefield that I am insanely lucky if I lose more than a single medium/large battle to the AI in the course of a single conquer-the-world campaign. And that is on VH

that's true... but then again the red line placement is just as arbitrary. Micro-ing on the campaign map won't help you much because quite frankly on the battle map you'll oftenly get the "WHAAAAAAT ??? THIS IS NOT THE TERRAIN I ORDERED!!! AAAAARGH!"

[Macilrille]

That is your choice, but if the stupid AI outnumbers you two- three times, you use the advantages you get. And the fact of the matter is that no matter how well you place your units sometimes when it zooms to the battlemap you find yourself in the stupidest position you could be in (good example, you zoom to tile, micro so your legion is exatly on the crest/saddle of a pass to hold it against barbarian hordes, then when they attack you find them in the saddle and yourself below even though you know for certain it was the perfect placement. Or if your german general has said "Ready to ambush" and hidden in a forest, when the battle starts you have no forest on the tile...). If heavily outnumbered and in a bad position, I use the holy red line. The engine artificially constrains my choices and puts me at disadvantage, so I redress the balance.

[antisocialmunky]

If the AI has 5000 troops and I'm limiting myself to size 12 armies I can actually lose with, then yeah I'm cool with corner camping.

[Aemilius Paulus]

That is your choice, but if the stupid AI outnumbers you two- three times, you use the advantages you get. And the fact of the matter is that no matter how well you place your units sometimes when it zooms to the battlemap you find yourself in the stupidest position you could be in (good example, you zoom to tile, micro so your legion is exatly on the crest/saddle of a pass to hold it against barbarian hordes, then when they attack you find them in the saddle and yourself below even though you know for certain it was the perfect placement. Or if your german general has said "Ready to ambush" and hidden in a forest, when the battle starts you have no forest on the tile...). If heavily outnumbered and in a bad position, I use the holy red line. The engine artificially constrains my choices and puts me at disadvantage, so I redress the balance.

Of all the people here, you are a cheater as well...? You disappoint me sir... I wish I could lose, but I never get the opportunity. The campaign map is my favourite, and I spend hours on it to make sure all goes precisely by my specifications. If I lose in battle, then I am happy. BUT, if I were to lose the battle and lose an FM, that would be too much. You see, I am the cheater fellow who plays alex.exe just because you get the immortality.

[Ibrahim]

and how is this "noob tactic" ??? i pull this trick many times if i'm grossly outnumbered thus extremely susceptible to getting flanked. I know it's kind of "cheating" but i use any edge i can find on the battlefield...

Edit: obviously with a highly mobile , light , skirmisher army against pike phallanxes (like the one pictured) getting cornered is NOT the thing to do. However i can assure you that using the battlefield corners' to defend with pike phallanxes is HIGHLY effective...

n00by!!n00by!!!n00by!!!

allright, allright: so the AI is too stupid to work properly, and its perfectly ok to do "n00b" tactivs on them, mostly because by AI standards such tactics are genius. I thus do not consider it cheating (against the AI), but I do not do it myself. I prefer to just steam roller my way through-18th century style-by deplyoning the men in a line, firing, advancing, and firing again, then making a final charge. it always scares the enemy, even when they outnumber me.

its how I routed 4500 carthaginians with only 1400 men

[SwissBarbar]

BTW the phallanx "noob box" is not so noob either... it was employed by Alexander at the battle of Gaugamela

LOL, no, definitely not

[Macilrille]

Of all the people here, you are a cheater as well...? You disappoint me sir... I wish I could lose, but I never get the opportunity. The campaign map is my favourite, and I spend hours on it to make sure all goes precisely by my specifications. If I lose in battle, then I am happy. BUT, if I were to lose the battle and lose an FM, that would be too much. You see, I am the cheater fellow who plays alex.exe just because you get the immortality.

Thanks for the expectations in me ;-)
I do not mind FM that merely adds to the roleplaying aspects that they can die heroically in battle, in fact I love/hate it (it is also a good way of getting rid of the undesirables). But yes, if you consider not letting the arbitraryness of the red line constrain me from building a good defence when outnumbered, yea I cheat. I also Aoto_win those battles where I am outnumbering nr xxx enemy stack heavily and cannot be botrhered to wait 3-8 mins while the battle screen loads.

If you want to loose, just send your halfstack of depleted units to guard/threaten somewhere against a fullstack, then discover the AI had spammed two more. Easy-piecey;-)

[Andronikos]

LOL, no, definitely not

He did it, it wasn't Gaugamela, but I remember reading about it in War lies by Fortinus and he wasn't the only one to do it.


I have seen AI deploy reinforcements in the corner quite often, but they remained there without taking part in the battle and after the main army was crushed, they withdrew.

[antisocialmunky]

Alexander IIRC used it during his expedition against the Scythians where he drew them into running around the box shooting. He then charged them and caught the Scythians between a rock and 2000 screaming Macedonian.

[ARCHIPPOS]

Alexander IIRC used it during his expedition against the Scythians where he drew them into running around the box shooting. He then charged them and caught the Scythians between a rock and 2000 screaming Macedonian.

That too but if i remember correctly at gaygamela he has employed a "boxed formation" with a front line and a rear line to protect his troops from getting overwhelmed and surrounded by the massive persian army...

EDIT: erm kinda like this not "closed box" exactly but certainly not the typical line formation either ...