Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 59

Thread: Hell and Christianity

  1. #1
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    In a hopeless place with no future
    Posts
    8,646

    Default Hell and Christianity

    Do you think the idea of Hell is compatible with the wider message of the Bible?

    The strange thing with this issue is that you can't place it along the usual liberal/fundamentalist lines, or at least not how you might expect it to fit. It tends to be the more moderate Christians that believe in traditional ideas of hell, whereas those who deny it's existence often come from the more radical fundamentalist sects.

    I do believe Hell exists. I know I could just go an quote a couple of verses, but it's more than that, it's part of my wider understanding of Christianity as a whole. Although I will also admit that it isn't so clear cut I could really give an opinion with any certainty when it comes to the specifics.

    Any thoughts from others on this?
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    I think to understand ‘hell’ as it was meant you have to look long & hard at the context in which it occurs. I am not a very learned person when it comes to theology; but as I understand it, hell is only really very important in the context of ‘salvation’. That is; you have people who receive ‘salvation’ and you have those who don't and those who don't, they go to hell. So it is not really ‘hell’ that is so important. What is important is ‘salvation’, and that ‘good will triumph’, that keeping faith may not be easy at all times but that it is also faith which will at the end reward you. This is distinct from taking matters into your own hand and being an obstructive warrior of the faith (Maccabees); this is more the quiet enduring kind of faith (Ruth).

    The problem I have with the idea of a wider message of the bible is that it is a body of somewhat awkard fitting theological views that clearly shifts a lot too. The closest analogy would be the repeated & doomed attempts of Mathematicians to find one basic set of axioms from which all of the known body of Math could be constructed by induction.
    - Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread


    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    I think it makes a large difference in what way you define as hell. If you define hell as an eternal inescapable place of punishment you violate Christan core values like forgiveness and love. However I think there is room for hell if it is treated as a temporary step to one's eventual repentance. Either way the idea of a fire and brimstone hell full of pain and torture is ridiculous and needs to go.
    When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
    -Stephen Crane

  4. #4
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    5,352

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Bah, just when you thought that life on this earth wasn't quite bad enough.




    There is one fundamental issue: Where do sadomasochists go? Hell for them is Heaven and vice versa. I think Hell and Heaven are personal concepts.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  5. #5
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    2,132

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    I think Hell and Heaven are personal concepts.
    "The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n"

    Ajax

    "I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
    "I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
    "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey

  6. #6
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Hell exists all right, it's the morning train to Amsterdam

  7. #7
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Do you think the idea of Hell is compatible with the wider message of the Bible?

    The strange thing with this issue is that you can't place it along the usual liberal/fundamentalist lines, or at least not how you might expect it to fit. It tends to be the more moderate Christians that believe in traditional ideas of hell, whereas those who deny it's existence often come from the more radical fundamentalist sects.

    I do believe Hell exists. I know I could just go an quote a couple of verses, but it's more than that, it's part of my wider understanding of Christianity as a whole. Although I will also admit that it isn't so clear cut I could really give an opinion with any certainty when it comes to the specifics.

    Any thoughts from others on this?
    Yes, lots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Winter View Post
    I think it makes a large difference in what way you define as hell. If you define hell as an eternal inescapable place of punishment you violate Christan core values like forgiveness and love. However I think there is room for hell if it is treated as a temporary step to one's eventual repentance. Either way the idea of a fire and brimstone hell full of pain and torture is ridiculous and needs to go.
    On the contrary, the idea of suffering and "paying your dues" was considered incompatable with Christianity by Protestants and that was why they dropped purgatory. I think Tellos was on the right track when he said the focus was on "salvation" but that word still emplies "salvation from hell" which is really a tangental part of Christianity, not a central one.

    Central to Christianity is the idea of a broken relationship with God, and fixing that relationship. If you fix the relationship then when you die you go to be with God again (Heaven) and if you don't then you are without God (in Hell). My own view of Hell is not "fire and brimstone" because I think that's as much an allegory as the precious metals and stones that make up the New Jerusalem.

    Hell is a total absense of God, which means a total absense of everything, even "suffering" as we are able to understand it, an eternity in the void, and I can imagine nothing worse than that. Of course, for that to conception of Hell to work man needs to choose whether to accept or reject God, he needs Free Will.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  8. #8
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    For the early protestants damnation was fixed from the beginning, you were either doomed or you weren't. Protestants looked differently at salvation, they believed that 'good works' wasn't just the work you did for god but also to the community as it was god's community, before the reformation only work for god was considered as good works, this is a horribly old fashioned though as the lines are quite blurry. But making profit was a sign from god that they were on the right track, but they do believed in HELL AND SUFFERING. You either get there or you don't, so look for signs.

  9. #9
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    For the early protestants damnation was fixed from the beginning, you were either doomed or you weren't. Protestants looked differently at salvation, they believed that 'good works' wasn't just the work you did for god but also to the community as it was god's community, before the reformation only work for god was considered as good works, this is a horribly old fashioned though as the lines are quite blurry. But making profit was a sign from god that they were on the right track, but they do believed in HELL AND SUFFERING. You either get there or you don't, so look for signs.
    That's only true in places, it depends on your form of "Protestantism" and your definition of "early". Luther was unwilling to define the relationship between Free Will, Salvation and Damnation, ultimately coming down on a slight re-wording of traditional Christian theology and a fuzzy "division" between "worldy" and "Godly" matters.

    You are, by the way, flot out wrong about the Catholic attitude to "works" as Medieval Catholicism considered all works od "charity" works of piety, so that rebuilding your local Church went alongside helping the poor or caring for Lepers.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  10. #10
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Agreed, this is only true for Calvinism my bad. I admit that it's a horribly outdated theory, but it's still useful for understanding the rise of the modern age if you are interested in economical theory. What is important is that 'normal' labour became a virtue whose rewards were seen as god looking kindly upon you, while before the reformation only work for 'the church' was considered virtues.

    edit, church isn't really the correct word but you know what I mean
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-02-2010 at 14:09.

  11. #11
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    9,029

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Agreed, this is only true for Calvinism my bad. I admit that it's a horribly outdated theory, but it's still useful for understanding the rise of the modern age if you are interested in economical theory. What is important is that 'normal' labour became a virtue whose rewards were seen as god being kindly upon you, while before the reformation only work for the church was considered virtues.
    Someone has been reading Weber I see ;)
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  12. #12
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Agreed, this is only true for Calvinism my bad. I admit that it's a horribly outdated theory, but it's still useful for understanding the rise of the modern age if you are interested in economical theory. What is important is that 'normal' labour became a virtue whose rewards were seen as god being kindly upon you, while before the reformation only work for the church was considered virtues.
    Ah, I see yor point. However, I think this was only true after the Reformation, as Catholics prior to the Reformation were expected to work hard to maintain the Body of Christ, i.e. the serf was bound by God to work his Master's land and the Lord was bound by God to protect his vassals, while the Priest was bound to pray for the souls of both.

    Thence we have the "Three Orders" of life, those who Work, Fight, and Pray, which went to make up pre-Renaissance Europe.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  13. #13
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    CA my boy! And his critics

  14. #14
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Ah, I see yor point. However, I think this was only true after the Reformation, as Catholics prior to the Reformation were expected to work hard to maintain the Body of Christ, i.e. the serf was bound by God to work his Master's land and the Lord was bound by God to protect his vassals, while the Priest was bound to pray for the souls of both.

    Thence we have the "Three Orders" of life, those who Work, Fight, and Pray, which went to make up pre-Renaissance Europe.
    Yes but that is really the change, it's an outdated idea that there was no godly dimension to manual labour before the reformation, just about every guild had it's own patron saint for example, but with the reformation all these tree orders became part of a single entity where everybody does it's part, the christian community, people weren't concious about their religion like that before the reformation, there was no alternative. If you look at art from the period for example you will always see religious procedures happing with a city in the background

  15. #15
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    In a hopeless place with no future
    Posts
    8,646

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Those are good point there Frag, but I have to say I came across Weber in my politics course last year, and I think his understanding of Protestantism and it's effects on society are a bit off at times.

    First of all, take his fundemental idea - that Calvinism was the main cause of the development of capitalism. Maybe it's just the Marxist in me, but I think he has got the cause and effect the wrong way round here. Don't get me wrong, Calvinism and capitalism definetely complemented each other once they were developing alongside, but I would say that it was the social/economic factors which caused Calvinism to develop where it did, rather than vice-versa. For example, take England - the growth in the importance of trade over the old feudal system cleary predates the development of Puritanism - and when Puritanism did develop, it just happened to be in the major commercial centres amongst the artisans and merchants etc. Also, it's not just the theology that mattered, there was also the issue of church governance. The Catholic Church with its hierarchy was seen as an oppressive force upholding the old feudal order and supporting increasingly absolutist monarchs whose control over trade was so strict it was almost an early form of state capitalism. Calvinism, on the other hand, brought a more democratic form of church governance through either Presbyterianism or Congregationalism - and as they say, there's no king without the bishops.

    Another way to tell whether capitalism or Calvinism caused each other is to look at the states which are the exception to the rule. So take Scotland for example - a more backward country than Puritan England or the Netherlands, yet despite becoming fiercely Calvinist, it remained backward and feudal until the 18th century, by which time deism was in all likelihood as prominent amongst the enlightenment figures (Adam Smith, Hume etc) as Calvinism (though they couldn't say it out loud or they got executed). Anyway, if Calvinism really caused the development of capitalism, this should as a rule have happened in Scotland as well, but it didn't.

    Secondly, I think he over emphasises the idea that people believed wealth was a sign of salvation, or the 'prosperity doctrine' as we call it today. I have never seen this idea amongst any of the major Calvinist figures of the previous centuries, from Calvin himself, to John Owen, John Murray etc. What they do say is that God may bless 'the elect' with prosperity, he may maintain them with what they have, or he may take everything away. What I do gather though is that the Calvinist work ethic seems to stem from the strict nature of the theology - so basically if you're not working as hard as you can and using everything God gave you, then you are being slothful, and that is a sin and a sign of reprobation.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  16. #16
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    First of all, take his fundemental idea - that Calvinism was the main cause of the development of capitalism. Maybe it's just the Marxist in me, but I think he has got the cause and effect the wrong way round here.

    Depends on how far you take it back, and how far you let it go on. Weber took the wrong age to take as a starting point but there is a pretty much consistent developement afterwards, Weber is a marxist I would say. There are many things wrong with the Weber theory most of all the rationalized society, but the longer the timespan the more he makes sense.

    edit: before anyone gets confused, marxist means a logical development here not politics.
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-02-2010 at 16:35.

  17. #17
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Hell has nothing to do with good and evil.

    Hell has everything to do with you accepting Jesus and his gift.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  18. #18
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    In a hopeless place with no future
    Posts
    8,646

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Hell has nothing to do with good and evil.

    Hell has everything to do with you accepting Jesus and his gift.
    I agree 100% that it's about whether or not you accept Jesus, and not if you're good or evil. But some people say God is evil if such a thing as hell exists.

    I am just curious as to what the Christians (or others) on this board say, since there is such a wide range of views. The views could range from anything to saying that hell doesn't exist, or that hell is just symbolic for separation from God, or that people simply deserve to go to hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    First of all, take his fundemental idea - that Calvinism was the main cause of the development of capitalism. Maybe it's just the Marxist in me, but I think he has got the cause and effect the wrong way round here.

    Depends on how far you take it back, and how far you let it go on. Weber took the wrong age to take as a starting point but there is a pretty much consistent developement afterwards, Weber is a marxist I would say. There are many things wrong with the Weber theory most of all the rationalized society, but the longer the timespan the more he makes sense.

    edit: before anyone gets confused, marxist means a logical development here not politics.
    Surely Weber is arguing the opposite of the Marxist view? Weber seems to say that Calvinist beliefs were the trigger for the development of capitalism. A Marxist on the other hand would say that market forces and the development of social structures are the sole factors which drive change in society. Different ideologies such as Calvinism would only be expressions of these.
    Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 02-02-2010 at 18:17.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  19. #19
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    A marxist view means something different for historians, has nothing to do with economic theory, it's assuming a certain chain of events, a natural progression.

  20. #20
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    In a hopeless place with no future
    Posts
    8,646

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    A marxist view means something different for historians, has nothing to do with economic theory, it's assuming a certain chain of events, a natural progression.
    I know the Marxist view of history is something different from a political Marxist/communist, but as I understand it the defining point of Marxist historians is that they see all human history as being the development of the economy and class structure, and that these are the only factors which shape historical progression.

    Of course, Marxist historians do take the view that society progresses through a set number of stages and that these developments are all pretty much inevitable... but surely that isn't the main point in the Marxist historical outlook. Even Adam Smith pushed the idea that there were four stages of society (primitive - nomadic - arable - commercial), known as 'stadialism'. All Marx did really was stick another stage on the end.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  21. #21
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    You should see it as a method of reasoning, from abc or to cba, it has nothing to do with an opinion, just seeing history as a set of consequences instead of random events. In that way Weber is a Marxist historian.
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-02-2010 at 20:46.

  22. #22
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,348

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Weberian history is different from Marxian history. Marx saw history as the result of mankind's different ways of interacting with the world around it ("modes of production"), Weber was an idealist IIRC.
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

  23. #23
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    First of all, take his fundemental idea - that Calvinism was the main cause of the development of capitalism. Maybe it's just the Marxist in me, but I think he has got the cause and effect the wrong way round here.

    Depends on how far you take it back, and how far you let it go on. Weber took the wrong age to take as a starting point but there is a pretty much consistent developement afterwards, Weber is a marxist I would say. There are many things wrong with the Weber theory most of all the rationalized society, but the longer the timespan the more he makes sense.

    edit: before anyone gets confused, marxist means a logical development here not politics.
    Hell is waking up to find oneself in an alternate reality where Fragony is a refined intellectual, talking about stuff I do not understand.



    My boy.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  24. #24
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkykJ5uFqPI

    This thread reminded me of this.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  25. #25
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    9,029

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Another way to tell whether capitalism or Calvinism caused each other is to look at the states which are the exception to the rule. So take Scotland for example - a more backward country than Puritan England or the Netherlands, yet despite becoming fiercely Calvinist, it remained backward and feudal until the 18th century, by which time deism was in all likelihood as prominent amongst the enlightenment figures (Adam Smith, Hume etc) as Calvinism (though they couldn't say it out loud or they got executed). Anyway, if Calvinism really caused the development of capitalism, this should as a rule have happened in Scotland as well, but it didn't.
    Weber believed that there were multiple paths to Capitalism, and that Calvinism was just one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    edit: before anyone gets confused, marxist means a logical development here not politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    A marxist view means something different for historians, has nothing to do with economic theory, it's assuming a certain chain of events, a natural progression.
    Nah, that's a Modernist historian. Marxist historians are still Marxists (Look at Hobsbawm, etc) in the economic sense and still look for that guiding hand of economic development, but they are by their very nature also Modernist. Modernist historians look for an overarching grand narrative to history and look at the inter-linking developments between two points (a diachronic analysis). This is as opposed to post-modern historians who would rather perform a synchronic analysis of a society, which is just a snapshot of a society at one given moment.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  26. #26
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,812

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Somewhat off topic, can somebody tell me what the jewish take on the afterlife is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    A marxist view means something different for historians, has nothing to do with economic theory, it's assuming a certain chain of events, a natural progression.
    You should be using the word "deterministic" instead. Marxism is indeed deterministic, to the point of absurdity...

  27. #27
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    I agree 100% that it's about whether or not you accept Jesus, and not if you're good or evil. But some people say God is evil if such a thing as hell exists.

    .
    My cliif notes.

    -There is an ongoing war between God and Satan for the souls on Earth
    -Temptation and leading some of the flock astray is Satans way of waging this war.
    -Let me make this clear there is a hell because there is evil but it is not because God is evil
    -It is because Satan is, God is merciful and just and all we have to do is accept him and follow the teachings of jesus Christ.

    That is what I beilive and I know it's not popular here.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Yes, lots.



    On the contrary, the idea of suffering and "paying your dues" was considered incompatable with Christianity by Protestants and that was why they dropped purgatory. I think Tellos was on the right track when he said the focus was on "salvation" but that word still emplies "salvation from hell" which is really a tangental part of Christianity, not a central one.

    Central to Christianity is the idea of a broken relationship with God, and fixing that relationship. If you fix the relationship then when you die you go to be with God again (Heaven) and if you don't then you are without God (in Hell). My own view of Hell is not "fire and brimstone" because I think that's as much an allegory as the precious metals and stones that make up the New Jerusalem.

    Hell is a total absense of God, which means a total absense of everything, even "suffering" as we are able to understand it, an eternity in the void, and I can imagine nothing worse than that. Of course, for that to conception of Hell to work man needs to choose whether to accept or reject God, he needs Free Will.
    True, but according to most protestants God's salvation is still conditional upon accepting Christ by your death. The idea of hell in which I was speaking of is not so much purgatory as it is another chance to make peace with god. Would God truly allow something as simple as death to come in the way of an eventual reunion with one of his children? Remember the prodigal son, it is not the saved who god reaches out to as much as those who can be brought back into the flock. The existence of a permanent hell contradicts to many things to hold any weight.
    When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
    -Stephen Crane

  29. #29
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    9,286

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    There has to be a hell with the fire and brimstone and dudes with pitchforks. All those metal bands from the 80's couldn't have been lying to me.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  30. #30
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Hell and Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Marxist historians are still Marxists (Look at Hobsbawm, etc) in the economic sense and still look for that guiding hand of economic development, but they are by their very nature also Modernist.
    It's a relatively new approach to include social/economic factors to the greater picture, I would say it emerged at the same time. Ok, there is a difference between a Marxist historian and a marxist approach.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO