Hell and Christianity

[Hax]

Bah, just when you thought that life on this earth wasn't quite bad enough.




There is one fundamental issue: Where do sadomasochists go? Hell for them is Heaven and vice versa. I think Hell and Heaven are personal concepts.

[ajaxfetish]

I think Hell and Heaven are personal concepts.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n"

Ajax

[Fragony]

Hell exists all right, it's the morning train to Amsterdam

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do you think the idea of Hell is compatible with the wider message of the Bible?

The strange thing with this issue is that you can't place it along the usual liberal/fundamentalist lines, or at least not how you might expect it to fit. It tends to be the more moderate Christians that believe in traditional ideas of hell, whereas those who deny it's existence often come from the more radical fundamentalist sects.

I do believe Hell exists. I know I could just go an quote a couple of verses, but it's more than that, it's part of my wider understanding of Christianity as a whole. Although I will also admit that it isn't so clear cut I could really give an opinion with any certainty when it comes to the specifics.

Any thoughts from others on this?

Yes, lots.

I think it makes a large difference in what way you define as hell. If you define hell as an eternal inescapable place of punishment you violate Christan core values like forgiveness and love. However I think there is room for hell if it is treated as a temporary step to one's eventual repentance. Either way the idea of a fire and brimstone hell full of pain and torture is ridiculous and needs to go.

On the contrary, the idea of suffering and "paying your dues" was considered incompatable with Christianity by Protestants and that was why they dropped purgatory. I think Tellos was on the right track when he said the focus was on "salvation" but that word still emplies "salvation from hell" which is really a tangental part of Christianity, not a central one.

Central to Christianity is the idea of a broken relationship with God, and fixing that relationship. If you fix the relationship then when you die you go to be with God again (Heaven) and if you don't then you are without God (in Hell). My own view of Hell is not "fire and brimstone" because I think that's as much an allegory as the precious metals and stones that make up the New Jerusalem.

Hell is a total absense of God, which means a total absense of everything, even "suffering" as we are able to understand it, an eternity in the void, and I can imagine nothing worse than that. Of course, for that to conception of Hell to work man needs to choose whether to accept or reject God, he needs Free Will.

[Fragony]

For the early protestants damnation was fixed from the beginning, you were either doomed or you weren't. Protestants looked differently at salvation, they believed that 'good works' wasn't just the work you did for god but also to the community as it was god's community, before the reformation only work for god was considered as good works, this is a horribly old fashioned though as the lines are quite blurry. But making profit was a sign from god that they were on the right track, but they do believed in HELL AND SUFFERING. You either get there or you don't, so look for signs.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For the early protestants damnation was fixed from the beginning, you were either doomed or you weren't. Protestants looked differently at salvation, they believed that 'good works' wasn't just the work you did for god but also to the community as it was god's community, before the reformation only work for god was considered as good works, this is a horribly old fashioned though as the lines are quite blurry. But making profit was a sign from god that they were on the right track, but they do believed in HELL AND SUFFERING. You either get there or you don't, so look for signs.

That's only true in places, it depends on your form of "Protestantism" and your definition of "early". Luther was unwilling to define the relationship between Free Will, Salvation and Damnation, ultimately coming down on a slight re-wording of traditional Christian theology and a fuzzy "division" between "worldy" and "Godly" matters.

You are, by the way, flot out wrong about the Catholic attitude to "works" as Medieval Catholicism considered all works od "charity" works of piety, so that rebuilding your local Church went alongside helping the poor or caring for Lepers.

[Fragony]

Agreed, this is only true for Calvinism my bad. I admit that it's a horribly outdated theory, but it's still useful for understanding the rise of the modern age if you are interested in economical theory. What is important is that 'normal' labour became a virtue whose rewards were seen as god looking kindly upon you, while before the reformation only work for 'the church' was considered virtues.

edit, church isn't really the correct word but you know what I mean

[Lord Winter]

Yes, lots.



On the contrary, the idea of suffering and "paying your dues" was considered incompatable with Christianity by Protestants and that was why they dropped purgatory. I think Tellos was on the right track when he said the focus was on "salvation" but that word still emplies "salvation from hell" which is really a tangental part of Christianity, not a central one.

Central to Christianity is the idea of a broken relationship with God, and fixing that relationship. If you fix the relationship then when you die you go to be with God again (Heaven) and if you don't then you are without God (in Hell). My own view of Hell is not "fire and brimstone" because I think that's as much an allegory as the precious metals and stones that make up the New Jerusalem.

Hell is a total absense of God, which means a total absense of everything, even "suffering" as we are able to understand it, an eternity in the void, and I can imagine nothing worse than that. Of course, for that to conception of Hell to work man needs to choose whether to accept or reject God, he needs Free Will.

True, but according to most protestants God's salvation is still conditional upon accepting Christ by your death. The idea of hell in which I was speaking of is not so much purgatory as it is another chance to make peace with god. Would God truly allow something as simple as death to come in the way of an eventual reunion with one of his children? Remember the prodigal son, it is not the saved who god reaches out to as much as those who can be brought back into the flock. The existence of a permanent hell contradicts to many things to hold any weight.

[drone]

There has to be a hell with the fire and brimstone and dudes with pitchforks. All those metal bands from the 80's couldn't have been lying to me.