Hell and Christianity

Originally Posted by Kralizec

Somewhat off topic, can somebody tell me what the jewish take on the afterlife is?

Depends on the Jewish sect (the old saying "When there's two Jews, there are three opinions" applies). Generally there's no hell, in the sense of there being a fiery place of damnation waiting, at all times, for any sinner after he dies. There is Gehenna, a somber gray place much like the Asphodel Meadows of Hades. IIRC, depending on the tradition, souls either dwell there until the Last Judgment, or simply lie in the ground where they were buried until the same event. Only at that point, when the Meshioch has come, together with the end of the world, is a final judgment spoken by God, at which point sinners are cast into a fiery pit much like the Western conception of Hell and the good are taken to a new, idyllic world (cf. the world post-Ragnarok).

So there's no hell in the sense of it waiting for you right now, only at the end of time. You can make your peace with Adonai in that time. I'm not a practicing Jew, though (on the contrary, hoho), so I might be wrong.

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

My cliif notes.

-There is an ongoing war between God and Satan for the souls on Earth
-Temptation and leading some of the flock astray is Satans way of waging this war.
-Let me make this clear there is a hell because there is evil but it is not because God is evil
-It is because Satan is, God is merciful and just and all we have to do is accept him and follow the teachings of jesus Christ.

That is what I beilive and I know it's not popular here.

The problem I have with foregrounding Satan and God in this (very Calvinistic) way is that it removes too much responsibility for our own actions, it allows you to move that responsibility to an external power and absolve yourself.

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I agree 100% that it's about whether or not you accept Jesus, and not if you're good or evil. But some people say God is evil if such a thing as hell exists.

I am just curious as to what the Christians (or others) on this board say, since there is such a wide range of views. The views could range from anything to saying that hell doesn't exist, or that hell is just symbolic for separation from God, or that people simply deserve to go to hell.

I think that seperating "being evil" from "rejecting God" is strange. It implies there is a seperation between Good and God.

Originally Posted by Lord Winter

True, but according to most protestants God's salvation is still conditional upon accepting Christ by your death. The idea of hell in which I was speaking of is not so much purgatory as it is another chance to make peace with god. Would God truly allow something as simple as death to come in the way of an eventual reunion with one of his children? Remember the prodigal son, it is not the saved who god reaches out to as much as those who can be brought back into the flock. The existence of a permanent hell contradicts to many things to hold any weight.

You just described Catholic Purgatory. The prodigal Son goes back to his Father, the Father waits but does not drag his son home. What kind of God (Father) beats his children and demands they love him?

Hell is fundamentally a seperation from God, such a seperation must be chosen, not enforced.

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Hell is fundamentally a seperation from God, such a seperation must be chosen, not enforced.

Then I must be in hell already and it's pretty fun really.

Originally Posted by Fragony

It's a relatively new approach to include social/economic factors to the greater picture, I would say it emerged at the same time. Ok, there is a difference between a Marxist historian and a marxist approach.

Modernist historiography goes all the way back to von Ranke who wanted to find evidence of the work of God in history and saw something of a guiding hand. Marxists simply look at one approach to this 'guiding hand' (economic determinism) and say that it is the sole driving force of history.

Sorry but you are wrong, determinism is indeed the better word, it assumes a certain outcome. Can be about anything.

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I think that seperating "being evil" from "rejecting God" is strange. It implies there is a seperation between Good and God.

I'll give you a hint: Godfearing is related to fear (the loving kind of fear but still). Mass punishment of a people because you do as He says, because you reject what He says, is good? The Old testament God is not good.

A less personal note, wouldn't Good=God mean that no human can be good without knowing God?

A friend of mine once posited an interesting question: is the God of Jesus, all-forgiving as he is, just? Do you want to forgive someone like Stalin, Hitler or Mao? Do they belong in Heaven, do they deserve compassion?

He was of the opinion that such a God was just. I was not. Adonai, "the God of the Old Testament", is a just god. Harsh, but just. There must be consequences for your actions. Truly evil men deserve to burn.

I think it's good people are discussing the Jewish beliefs, since they could be the key to understanding what exactly Jesus meant when he commented on heaven/hell. Also, I should point out, the Christian view is not as clear cut as people here seem to believe it is (in that they think you either go straight to heaven/hell, and that's you). Both the Orthodox Churches and Calvinists believe in two seperate holding places for the dead, until heaven/hell are created at judgment day. The intermediate place for the saints is usually called 'Abraham's Bosom', whereas heaven is a new perfect earth (not a place of floating spirits in the clouds or anything like that). Other groups like the Seventh-Day Adventists believe in the idea of 'soul sleeping' until the final judgment, and then the saints are resurrected to live on the new earth, while 'hell' is the name for the conditions on earth which the reprobate will live in before being they are completely destroyed (the second death). (and I just pointed out the Adventist example because even though they are a small church, they really emphasise the Jewish roots of the Christian beliefs).

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I think that seperating "being evil" from "rejecting God" is strange. It implies there is a seperation between Good and God.

I meant it's not about people being good as if that it's one of their own inherent qualities. I just meant that the order of things is not 'you are good = you follow Jesus', it's a case of 'you follow Jesus = you willl do good'.

Also, do you believe that people must attribute any good they do to God? I would say that, but it's not what I would have guessed you believe given your stance on free will.

George Carlin made some extremely point on this discussion.
Carlin On religion

The most revelant part to this discussion:

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The problem I have with foregrounding Satan and God in this (very Calvinistic) way is that it removes too much responsibility for our own actions, it allows you to move that responsibility to an external power and absolve yourself.
.

How so? To truly be one of the flock you must follow these teachings as well. We are still held accountable here on earth and to God all sins are equaled because in the next life they are of no consequnece if you accepted Jesus and lived up to his teachings to the best of your abilities.

Originally Posted by Ironside

I'll give you a hint: Godfearing is related to fear (the loving kind of fear but still). Mass punishment of a people because you do as He says, because you reject what He says, is good? The Old testament God is not good.

A less personal note, wouldn't Good=God mean that no human can be good without knowing God?

Two interesting points. The first is dealt with early in Genesis 18 when God promises he will not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if ten righteous men are found within the cities and the plane, the cities and the plane are destroyed.

The second point has two answers, either those without God lack goodness, or no one is truly without God. Anecdotal evidence would point to the latter, that even those who wholly reject God are not wholly apart from him in this life.

Originally Posted by The Wizard

A friend of mine once posited an interesting question: is the God of Jesus, all-forgiving as he is, just? Do you want to forgive someone like Stalin, Hitler or Mao? Do they belong in Heaven, do they deserve compassion?

He was of the opinion that such a God was just. I was not. Adonai, "the God of the Old Testament", is a just god. Harsh, but just. There must be consequences for your actions. Truly evil men deserve to burn.

Well, in order to be forgiven you have to be truly penitent, and not merely afraid for your soul. Imagine the amount of penitence appropriate to Hitler's, Stalin's, or Mao's crimes. Imagine the amount of mental suffering that would produce.

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

How so? To truly be one of the flock you must follow these teachings as well. We are still held accountable here on earth and to God all sins are equaled because in the next life they are of no consequnece if you accepted Jesus and lived up to his teachings to the best of your abilities.

Quite so, but the way you put it the first time makes hummanity sound like a collection of pieces on a draughts board.

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Two interesting points. The first is dealt with early in Genesis 18 when God promises he will not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if ten righteous men are found within the cities and the plane, the cities and the plane are destroyed.

I was refering to the power trip God does in Exodus, when hardening the heart of Pharaoh, to then punish the Egyptians for that Pharaoh refuses to let the Israelis go. God finally culminates this by sending down the destroyer (nice name, a demon?) and kills all first born sons of Egypt, as he previously predicted...

Originally Posted by Ironside

I was refering to the power trip God does in Exodus, when hardening the heart of Pharaoh, to then punish the Egyptians for that Pharaoh refuses to let the Israelis go. God finally culminates this by sending down the destroyer (nice name, a demon?) and kills all first born sons of Egypt, as he previously predicted...

You're in danger of being openly offensive now. I'm sorry, a "demon"? I don't have Exodus here with me, but the point is made in Genesis. God is just, so if he does something it is just even if it doesn't look it. That is the narrative of the Bible.

"so basically if you're not working as hard as you can and using everything God gave you, then you are being slothful, and that is a sin and a sign of reprobation."

SHame on me for not reading earlier. The early protestants had a mission to reinstall gods kingdom on earth, and not working the fields as hard as you can was a sin because they had to treat the world as best as they could. Weber didn't get that and cherry-picked from some quotes, it's pretty easy to go in with a stretched leg, the harships of labour weren't actually underapreciated.

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You're in danger of being openly offensive now. I'm sorry, a "demon"? I don't have Exodus here with me, but the point is made in Genesis. God is just, so if he does something it is just even if it doesn't look it. That is the narrative of the Bible.

Exodus 12:23
When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.

The only mention of the destroyer in the Bible, but it's not God and it's one cruel entity.
Seems to differ a lot between translations on that one though, but the never ones from original Hebrew are the ones mentioning the destroyer as an entity.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

That's just before unleashing The Plague on the Firstborn. The LORD does it multiple times before that.

I'm simply telling that the actions God doesn't make sense even beyond the shroud of not understanding God's actions. There's hundreds of ways to handle the Exodus without looking cruel, manipulative and getting an excuse for displaying powers.
As you might have guessed, should God irrefutably exist, he would need a lot of explaination before I would consider worshipping him, because he leaves very few indications of being good.

You might like this link http://www.biblegateway.com/. Got the whole bible in quite a bit of versions.
The one I quoted are the new international version.

Originally Posted by Ironside

Exodus 12:23
When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.

The only mention of the destroyer in the Bible, but it's not God and it's one cruel entity.
Seems to differ a lot between translations on that one though, but the never ones from original Hebrew are the ones mentioning the destroyer as an entity.

I believe it's usually assumed to be Urial, the Angel of Death. In any case, where is it "cruel"?

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

That's just before unleashing The Plague on the Firstborn. The LORD does it multiple times before that.

Well, I suppose God doesn't look too good there, I could go over the theological justification regarding kingship, but at the end of the day Exodus does not reflect real events, so the issue lies with the author, not God.

I'm simply telling that the actions God doesn't make sense even beyond the shroud of not understanding God's actions. There's hundreds of ways to handle the Exodus without looking cruel, manipulative and getting an excuse for displaying powers.
As you might have guessed, should God irrefutably exist, he would need a lot of explaination before I would consider worshipping him, because he leaves very few indications of being good.

You might like this link http://www.biblegateway.com/. Got the whole bible in quite a bit of versions.
The one I quoted are the new international version.

Faith in God vs Faith in the Bible.

Choose one or the other.

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Quite so, but the way you put it the first time makes hummanity sound like a collection of pieces on a CHECKER board.

It's kinda of like that...

If hell exists, where would it be?

Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

If hell exists, where would it be?

Good Lord, as if religion was not fantasy-like enough, you have to ask this? If the existence of God was to proven, heaven or hell would be a very minor thing to explain. Supposing God plays by the rules, if he is that proverbial 'watchmaker', hell or heaven could be in another dimension. But given all the other irrational evidence, I would say this is the least of our troubles...

Your talk of Elohim punishing the Egyptians has made me need to listen to Metallica...

Originally Posted by PVC

Well, in order to be forgiven you have to be truly penitent, and not merely afraid for your soul. Imagine the amount of penitence appropriate to Hitler's, Stalin's, or Mao's crimes. Imagine the amount of mental suffering that would produce.

My friend posited that the God of Jesus is all-forgiving, regardless of what you've done.

If hell exists, where would it be?

Ohio

I agree with Fragony.





There, it's out.

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Ohio

Everybody knows it's Detroit.

Originally Posted by Hax

I agree with Fragony.





There, it's out.

don't fight it

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Ohio

a man after my own heart

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

It's kinda of like that...

Says your religion, but not mine. Two factors mitigate against the view, in my opinion.

1. It does not glorify God, because it reduces him from King and Father to merely Tyrant, making him merely the Devils opposite.

2. It harms hummanity and leads to Sin by removing the feeling of personal responsibility.

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Your talk of Elohim punishing the Egyptians has made me need to listen to Metallica...

My friend posited that the God of Jesus is all-forgiving, regardless of what you've done.

I agree with your friend, but in order to benefit from forgiveness you have to accept it; which requires penitence; which provokes anguish in the Soul for Sin.

You underestimate man's abilities at mental gymnastics.

Originally Posted by drone

Everybody knows it's Detroit.

Which calls for the classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSp2KGMQEk8

The first time I saw it, in the movie, I wet myself laughing.

Originally Posted by Kralizec

You underestimate man's abilities at mental gymnastics.

How so?

Originally Posted by Fragony

Sorry but you are wrong, determinism is indeed the better word, it assumes a certain outcome. Can be about anything.

We don't disagree. I'm just saying that Marxism has its own specific language for it.