Dear Mods/Admins

[TosaInu]

Hello,

As far as I know, noone is banned there. And noone is either banned or demoted from voicing his opinion. No one is talked to for having a different opinion. For the record: noone has eve been banned by me for voicing an opinion. Sure, it may look so in a few cases, but there's always been a much deeper story behind it. Think very colorful language, hacking, harassing, intimidation, lying, ad hominem, violation of privacy, breaking of contracts, posting porn and the list goes on.

A few have been demoted for how things were said and probably also for calling for 'action' (it's a month or more ago, I recall something about that). And even there I applied some 'haven't seen', because The old Tavern did also contain good and I understand people getting upset about the deletion (they would anyway, I know).

You Che, created the second Tavern. But from your behaviour, it's clear to me that you can't have a positive effect on that social group by being leader. You received an 8 pointer and a custom demotion of a month for being hostile, using bad language and thinking you could delete my messages in the social group calling for the group to play nice.

Administrators are given more rights by a script than normal members. This forumsoftware is no exception. An example: administrators can make you say: 'I love daisies and noone in the world would ever know it wasn't you'. Normal members have to hack your account to do that (they risk perma banning when caught, 100/100 now). But for administrators it's a very simple job.

Similarly, I don't have to go through all the hassle when appointing a moderator or social group leader. It's a simple push of one button and the script does the rest. The normal procedure with social group leaders is that any member who is one, can invite another to take over. It's using the PM system and ID's then. I'm guessing the administrative tool is such that once the administrator hits the red button, that the current leader is removed and a is forced to send an invitation PM to another member to take over. That could be seen as a courtesy gesture from the designers of the script. I don't have to do anything fishy or cover up.


You were not banned, but demoted. That means you have a very limited set of permissions around here.Childish? Oh yes. That childish reaction gradually developed during years in response to Hitler crying rebels. Not for sharing their opinion, but for plain terrorizing this site.

You were thrown out of the group by me for some colorful language you used there. The way you said things, not what you said. When I let it slip, the whole group will spiral down and it won't be too long or it will have to be deleted again. It won't be allowed to start another time when that happens.

[Fragony]

And Fragony was actually a really nice guy if you want to know

What went wrong :P

You are just saying that because I gave you every picture that appeared in the Playboy of the last 4 years, which I am willing to share with everone, except Che Roriniho.

pm will do.

[Cute Wolf]

What went wrong :P

You are just saying that because I gave you every picture that appeared in the Playboy of the last 4 years, which I am willing to share with everone, except Che Roriniho.

pm will do.

LOL!!! He's crying for it frag...

[Fragony]

Uncle Fragony knows what's good for you

[Centurion1]

Imagine

no my dear beefy everyone knows my generation has no imagination because of technology......... thats what the google is for.

[The Wizard]

Insulting TosaInu... -10 points, bad boy

[Fixiwee]

That said, for the last several weeks the Second Tavern has generally been very well behaved. Please do keep it up.

It is also terribly boring.

Here is my advise for the mods: Just wait it out and the tavern will vanish. You win.

[pevergreen]

no my dear beefy everyone knows my generation has no imagination because of technology......... thats what the google is for.

Your generation?

My friend, you are only a few years younger than the Beefmeister and myself.

On that note, you gunna wish me a happy birthday soon Beefy?

[TinCow]

It is also terribly boring.

Here is my advise for the mods: Just wait it out and the tavern will vanish. You win.

If the only reason the Tavern was interesting to you was that you were allowed to engage in behavior that violated Org rules, I will consider its death is good thing.

[Fixiwee]

If the only reason the Tavern was interesting to you was that you were allowed to engage in behavior that violated Org rules, I will consider its death is good thing.

Now you are twisting the meaning of my post to your suiting. Of course the tavern meant more to me then just violating rules. I'm not a troll, look at my list of infractions (hint: it's zero). The tavern represented something diffeerent for me, something this board does not offer.

Let's face it, every mod will be happy when it tavern is gone. Seeing the history and the problems it has cause it's hard to blame you though.
The outcry of someone who compares the admin to Hitler is idiotism par exelene. I'm not even defending the OP here.

[TinCow]

Now you are twisting the meaning of my post to your suiting. Of course the tavern meant more to me then just violating rules. I'm not a troll, look at my list of infractions (hint: it's zero). The tavern represented something diffeerent for me, something this board does not offer.

Then help me understand what we have done to make the Tavern 'boring.' As far as I can tell, the only thing we're doing is moderating it like we moderate the rest of the forums. If that alone is killing your fun, it does indeed seem like your fun was derived exclusively from being in an 'anything goes' zone.

[Subotan]

There was a lot of, pardon my french, filth in the Tavern. We are all volunteers here, most of us have a full time job/are studying, have a wive or girlfriend and many mods also have children. There were way too much messages to go through; since there was also enough filth in the tavern, it was decided to just delete it
.

There was a lot of cool stuff in there as well. A lot more.

Since Meth apparently wasn't capable of moderating the group, just like the previous person who maintained the group, btw, we had to decide: delete it again and no more EB Tavern or have a staff member moderate it.
.

You honestly expected Meth to be a good moderator?
Btw, I posted my wilingness to be the mod on numerous occasions.

Tosa saved your precious EB Tavern. Instead of yelling at him, you should be thankful.

Not true. Activity has massively declined since before the "coup". The poor little guy is on life support.

As far as I know, noone is banned there.

I think there is confusion as to what actually constitutes a ban. From our point of view, a 3 day ban is a ban.

A few have been demoted for how things were said and probably also for calling for 'action' (it's a month or more ago, I recall something about that).

Action? Huh? The most extreme action I can think of is poor Fixiwee's attempts to create a refuge.

He
And even there I applied some 'haven't seen', because The old Tavern did also contain good and I understand people getting upset about the deletion (they would anyway, I know).

The main problem as I see it is that we were not informed about what was going to happen. E.g. The Tavern was deleted. There was no explanation as to why. Likewise, when you took over moderation of the tavern, we were not even notified. Although you might not have meant this, it gave the impression that we weren't worth an explation, hence the outbursts.

[Fixiwee]

Then help me understand what we have done to make the Tavern 'boring.' As far as I can tell, the only thing we're doing is moderating it like we moderate the rest of the forums. If that alone is killing your fun, it does indeed seem like your fun was derived exclusively from being in an 'anything goes' zone.

I don't think you will agree to my opinion about it anyway.
"Anything goes" puts it too far. I feel restricted in what I represent because I can't say what I want to.

As far as I can tell, the only thing we're doing is moderating it like we moderate the rest of the forums.

It has been argued one too many time. But please think about it. It is true, you are just moderating. And that is the problem. You don't treat us like human beings, you delete, you ban, you kick people out of the tavern, you exclude. This is not very subtle.
And then you shouldn't wonder why certain people are angry and frustrated. You don't even try to work out the problems between the tavern and the moderation (except for Andres, whos post in the tavern was more then impressive). I wish it was more diplomacy and less "just pull the trigger".

[TinCow]

I wish it was more diplomacy and less "just pull the trigger".

I do understand this, but the Tavern also needs to realize that the Mods felt like we had tried diplomacy with your group for a very long time and were completely ignored. Nothing we did or said made any impression on the group as a whole, nor did its behavior ever change or improve until the wipe. Since the wipe, it appears that the Tavern has finally realized that we are serious and is now upset with the belief that we did not sufficiently communicate just how serious we were before the wipe. From our perspective, we made numerous efforts to get the Tavern to improve its behavior both with general statements directed at the Tavern as a group, as well as specific warning given to individual members. We feel we did our due diligence on the diplomacy side a long time ago.

We are not hard-hearted people, but the Tavern has lost our trust in its ability to manage itself in a manner that is consistent with the rules of this forum. The Tavern's choice at this point is to put in the time and effort to regain that trust, or to just let the group die. Honestly, the latter seems like pure laziness. The OP says "Man up, and grow a pair." I concur.

[Husar]

You honestly expected Meth to be a good moderator?

Some people grow with their task...

I don't really see the point of this debate, for one, we've already had it and the only seemingly new point, that only adults went there, is pretty moot because anyone could read it and there are enough children who claim to be older.
If you have a problem with authority, then you can either go to a freer place or work on yourself, but here we respect the authority and I've only seen very few if any actions of the mods that seemed wrong to me.
That said, I hope Lemur will eat the Tavern alive, I've always thought of him as a terribly frightening guy on a powertrip.

Oh and by the way, the Tavern wasn't closed, only the backroom was closed over the holidays.

[Andres]

There was a lot of cool stuff in there as well. A lot more.

Maybe. But there was a lot of filth and in all honesty: it wasn't possible for us to read each and every single message.

We have to keep this place clean, so push delete was the only option

It was not reasonable to expect us to read all that in order to "save the good stuff". You guys had your EB Tavern, you had the possibilities to keep it within the rules (you could have asked a fellow taverner to edit out some bad content, you could have contacted a moderator, you could have reported all bad messages, etc.).

Now you have a new, clean, EB Tavern. Grab your chance. There's also a whole .Org forum. I know some of you enjoy the BR, the Frontroom, the Monastery and/or the Gameroom. You're more than welcome there. You could repeat your tank discussion in the Monastery for example. You'll probably meet some interesting Orgah's you've never met before.

.Org staff doesn't hold grudges. The past is the past, water under the bridge. Make a fresh start. I'm pretty confident that most of you are fine .Org members if only you would just follow our boring rules

You honestly expected Meth to be a good moderator?
Btw, I posted my wilingness to be the mod on numerous occasions.

A long period of no rule violations in the EB Tavern might result in Tosa leaving the group leader spot open for one of you guys.

As I said: look at this as a fresh start. Things can change. Nothing lasts forever.

Not true. Activity has massively declined since before the "coup". The poor little guy is on life support.

It has never been forbidden to be active in your social group. You can have a lot of activity while staying within the rules. Or you could come out and discover the rest of our community.

I think there is confusion as to what actually constitutes a ban. From our point of view, a 3 day ban is a ban.

Maybe it's because I'm old and wrinkled, but 3 days is not thát long.

The main problem as I see it is that we were not informed about what was going to happen. E.g. The Tavern was deleted. There was no explanation as to why. Likewise, when you took over moderation of the tavern, we were not even notified. Although you might not have meant this, it gave the impression that we weren't worth an explation, hence the outbursts.

Deleting the place was the only real option

We have to keep this place clean and in accordance with our rules.

Explanations have been given already.

I don't want to sound harsh or rude, but the original social group will remain deleted and the actions taken will not be reversed. The explanations that have been given will have to do.

We have a warm, welcoming and very forgiving community. You know we love you.

Time to man up and grow a pair, indeed.

I'm sure you can do it

[Che Roriniho]

Okay, minor apology. I posted this comment as a copy of one I posted a while back in the tavern, and I was failry stressed when I originally posted it, so sorry for any ad hominem attacks.. But let's set some things straight.

Tosa, the reason why I wasn't moderating, was because I was banned. You know as well as anyone that nominating Meth could only have one result, so why did you do nominate him?

Another thing:

Administrators are given more rights by a script than normal members.

...

Normal members have to hack your account to do that (they risk perma banning when caught, 100/100 now). But for administrators it's a very simple job.

Having powers does not make them rights. Saying that an Admin compromising a members account is fine, but if a member does it to another member they are permab& looks, from some angles, to have a slightest tint of hipocricy. Saying what you do is right because you can does not follow. And using those powers, regardless of their 'righteousness', to remove someone who was only going to be a placeholder anyway (I made it clear in my first post (Thanks for deleting that by the way, it was annoying how something that broke no forum rules should have no action taken against it /sarcasm) that I was only a temporary barkeep until Appo came back.), so why removing me and give it to Meth, who any idiot (myself included) could tell you was the least the tavern needed (no offence meth) at that point, is quite beyond, well, everybody.

The reason I was banned was, as I explained when i deleted your post, because you were being deliberately irritating. We were fully aware that we needed to follow the rules, which we were doing, so posting that had no reason other than to annoy us.

The fact of the matter is, and here I am anwering god-knows-how-many mods, the Tavern was not some cess pit of disgusting pr0n (afaik, we didn't actually have any pictures AT ALL with women in any regard, except once, and Appo deleted that within the week), warez (none whatsoever), gore (again, none), flame wars (only a few, and these were all dealt with privately), and whilst there was swearing, the amounts decreased dramatically after we were warned, and several posts were moderated by Appo.(congratulations on reading that sentance in one go, it was a long one).
What you are doing, is pure misrepresentation.

And as regards the 9mm thing, pah-LEASE.

[Strike For The South]

Hmmmmmm...I'm having a hard time deciding if this will go in my top 5 .Org dramas. For me PictureGate/Bansick and ShambleS/JustAGirl are top 2 but other than that the field is wide open.

The fact Frags was completley slandered for no reason gives it a nice touch IMO.

I will continue following this with interest.

[The Wizard]

Having powers does not make them rights. Saying that an Admin compromising a members account is fine, but if a member does it to another member they are permab& looks, from some angles, to have a slightest tint of hipocricy. Saying what you do is right because you can does not follow.

Protip: he owns the forum. He pays for your EB Tavern. He can do with it whatever he damn well pleases. Welcome to the Internet.

[TosaInu]

Okay, minor apology. I posted this comment as a copy of one I posted a while back in the tavern, and I was failry stressed when I originally posted it, so sorry for any ad hominem attacks.. But let's set some things straight.

Tosa, the reason why I wasn't moderating, was because I was banned.

One hour told me enough in this case.

You know as well as anyone that nominating Meth could only have one result, so why did you do nominate him?

Give it a chance? Just like the whole social group is given another chance? Maybe I know nothing and I should ask anyone what to do? Delete the social group Tavern for good? 50 calls are enough to convince me (I initially said 10, but 50 gives your more chance to survive).

Another thing:

Having powers does not make them rights. Saying that an Admin compromising a members account is fine, but if a member does it to another member they are permab& looks, from some angles, to have a slightest tint of hipocricy.

I don't say it's right. The point is that administrators (with any software) can do different things than a normal member. I don't have to hack your account to revoke social group leadership.

The reason I was banned was, as I explained when i deleted your post, because you were being deliberately irritating.

Deliberately irritating.. yes I'm bored here. Nothing to do.

We were fully aware that we needed to follow the rules, which we were doing, so posting that had no reason other than to annoy us.

If only that was true, then I would never have to do anything and there would be no need for moderators.

But seriously; 50 people. I need advice please. Close the group or leave it open?

[Skullheadhq]

What about leaving it open?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hmmmmmm...I'm having a hard time deciding if this will go in my top 5 .Org dramas. For me PictureGate/Bansick and ShambleS/JustAGirl are top 2 but other than that the field is wide open.

Does the Pever Rebellion make it into that list?

[Andres]

Does the Pever Rebellion make it into that list?

It's n°1 on my list of most annoying mafia player behaviour

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[TinCow]

The fact of the matter is, and here I am anwering god-knows-how-many mods, the Tavern was not some cess pit of disgusting pr0n (afaik, we didn't actually have any pictures AT ALL with women in any regard, except once, and Appo deleted that within the week), warez (none whatsoever), gore (again, none), flame wars (only a few, and these were all dealt with privately), and whilst there was swearing, the amounts decreased dramatically after we were warned, and several posts were moderated by Appo.(congratulations on reading that sentance in one go, it was a long one).
What you are doing, is pure misrepresentation.

When the Moderators finally took a good look at the Tavern on December 17th, 60 separate rule violations were found in about 2 hours. That included cartoon pornography and a video of a cat being burned alive, with the majority of the rest being swearing, racism, and personal attacks. That was barely scratching the surface of the group as well, no one bothered digging deeper when it became apparent that the entire 10,000 posts would be consistent with the first couple hundred.

You Tavernites were clearly aware that what you were doing violated Org rules as well, as is apparent from a post made by Meth shortly after the Tavern was deleted:

What isn't to be expected, though, is the fact that I wasn't banned after all my countless violations of forum rules in the first tavern's social group. I guess Tosa just grimaced at it all and mercifully looked the other way.

If Meth was aware that his posts in the social group violated Org rules, I expect that the rest of you were as well.

[drone]

The fact of the matter is, and here I am anwering god-knows-how-many mods, the Tavern was not some cess pit of disgusting pr0n (afaik, we didn't actually have any pictures AT ALL with women in any regard, except once, and Appo deleted that within the week), warez (none whatsoever), gore (again, none), flame wars (only a few, and these were all dealt with privately), and whilst there was swearing, the amounts decreased dramatically after we were warned, and several posts were moderated by Appo.(congratulations on reading that sentance in one go, it was a long one).
What you are doing, is pure misrepresentation.

Actually, those were examples I (a standard member) posted of things not allowed on the Org. The highlighted bit is the crux of the issue. Rules were being broken and not corrected, it took a general warning that the parents were listening in to alert the Tavern members, and yet the rules continued to be broken (albeit to a lesser extent).

If I swear in the Frontroom, I expect to get points. Sounds to me like some of the Taverners got off easy, since the content took the punishment instead of the accounts. If the Tavern is to survive, it will probably require an outsider (and I am not volunteering!) to moderate it. It could be a punishment job, just like the Backroom.

And as regards the 9mm thing, pah-LEASE.

I know it's sarcasm. But it's addition in the post does not help your cause at all, and makes the whole argument look ridiculous. If you are trying to make a serious case and then tack stuff like that on the end, why bother posting it at all?

[Che Roriniho]

That included cartoon pornography and a video of a cat being burned alive

I will accept the Swearing, but this is just plain LYING.

[Ser Clegane]

At least the cat post I definitely remember. Perhaps you should ask the other Taverners - I am pretty sure that you will find somebody who actually has the guts to admit that it was posted and that it was out of line.

Accusing others oy lying is pretty poor style.

[Andres]

I will accept the Swearing, but this is just plain LYING.

You're right, it was not a cat. It was a kitten. The fire was lit with a zippo. Do I need to give more details or has your memory been refreshed enough already?

EDIT: I'm starting to wonder why I even bothered to make a long reply to your famous "letter"

Get your facts right before accusing people of being liars.

And thnx for making us look at that, btw. Very nice and friendly. You wanted reasons for deleting the EB Tavern? There you go. I'm all for being diplomatic and hiding your dirty laundry, but if you're going to play the "you're lying game" then I'll stop being nice and friendly in my rebuttals.

[Megas Methuselah]

The fact Frags was completley slandered for no reason gives it a nice touch IMO.

Haha, I know, eh? Poor moonyash.

[TinCow]

I will accept the Swearing, but this is just plain LYING.

I went back and checked and apparently the pornography was in a Taverner visitor message, not in the social group itself, so my apologies for that.

The video of the cat was most certainly posted in the Tavern though. It was posted in the thread "Official EB Tavern Photo Album."