Combat in the Med II engine

[Captain Jazzy]

Hello. Now im sure that EB II is going to be mind blowingly amazing but I have one small worry....
Combat in Medieval II is pretty sluggish... also the formations seemed to be very spaced. This lead to a couple of men at the fronts of the units engaging in realy slow and clumsy combat while the rest of the unit backed off and occasionaly took their places when they died. Im aware that its not realistic to have crazy RTW like slaughter but if the combat is like this in EB II with higher defence values combat could go on forever. So essentially my question is what will the combat be like in EB II will it retain more of a RTW feal or become slower and more like Med II?
Anyway thanks for reading.

[Julianus]

I hope the soldiers would die a little slower while rout a little sooner than in EB1.

[WinsingtonIII]

EB1 combat is already slow paced compared to RTW or even M2TW vanilla, so I'm guessing it will be about the same speed as it is now, although who knows really.

I am guessing that units will move and certainly turn slower. It's crazy how RTW cavalry can turn on a dime.

[vartan]

There are two things I'd like to see:

1) If shock cavalry try to retreat after a charge they just committed to, they should suffer many casualties as they turn and attempt to escape.

2) Units should have more men in their companies before they rout. At least on average, that is. I can't help but be amazed when I see a unit lose 90 percent or more of its men before it routs.

[MisterFred]

That's all well and good for historical realism. But for campaign and multiplayer fun, its usually better if a unit sticks in for a little while before routing. I think where EB I had it is about right. Although I do think some of EBI's elite units die a little easy.

[Julianus]

Forgot to say, one feature I always want is incrasing the time needed when a unit is "reforming". It has always been a most dangerous move to change your formation on the battle field such as increasing front width when enemy is near because of the confusion it might result in. However in EB1, the soldiers always manage to get into new position in a few seconds...Not sure if it's possible though.

[Cute Wolf]

medieval 2 balancing system = less actual damage dealed, more time for artistic coreographic combat, and non moddable lethality (stuck to their default values, no matter how u tweak)

But on the bright side, we will see less cavalrymen using their poking stick in melee, unless they are delibrately ordered to do that...

[Cambyses]

The thing were a couple of soldiers at the the front engage and the rest stand around is mostly a problem when fighting in the town centre, or trying to run past each other elsewhere Ive not seen that happen often when units engage cleanly on an open battlefield. And I dont get what people are saying about weaker cavalry in M2TW, a proper charge can still anihilate most infantry, even if they are prepared and from the front.

[Julianus]

I understand that if an infantry unit do rout when facing a cavalry charge, they should rout before the impact. Otherwise if they stay steady then it's the cavalry who will be in real trouble if they don't put on the brakes. So i always wonder if the "charge into an infantry unit -- if they don't rout then disengage and reform -- charge again until they rout" practice really happened in history.

[Captain Jazzy]

I just dont want to see my Hellcats owned by freed slaves =(

[Cyclops]

I understand that if an infantry unit do rout when facing a cavalry charge, they should rout before the impact. Otherwise if they stay steady then it's the cavalry who will be in real trouble if they don't put on the brakes. So i always wonder if the "charge into an infantry unit -- if they don't rout then disengage and reform -- charge again until they rout" practice really happened in history.

This is an interesting point, especially the bit about inf routing before impact. I am no expert, my knowledge is purely academic and limited at that. My impression from a few texts eg Face of Battle is units often fell back before contact when charged, refused to charge when ordered etc. so generalship was something like herding cats.

I recall having this problem with units in MTW (the old one) especially with 0 1 or 2 star commanders. If morale was a lot lower then we'd see charges brealk off sooner and defenders rout more often.

This makes for less impressive battles (hmmm the disorganised barbarians ran away again), or at least the impressive ones are less common. Maybe its a touch of historical realism? Real bloodbaths only happening when there are two well-led well-motivated forces, or there's no escape for one side?

In game terms I guess it would favour skirmishers and missile troops over heavies in that if both sides are unwilling to engage then shock loses value.

I suppose it might force players to position generals and "eagle" units more carefully and time attacks more exactly.

I find it frustrating when a flanking unit drops its bundle and flees to the rear but I guess it did happen and in fact it might have happened a lot.

Once again the game mechanics might not handle this so well, with the distortion of the town square and battlefield map edge meaning a rout has massively different values for different situations.

Is there a point in nerfing morale (and maybe speeding morale recovery? if possible?) to model troop trepidation?

[Ichon]

Routing before contact would make many battles almost unplayable or that only elite units would be used by human players since a handful of elite units could wipe up a full stack of low morale/prone to rout AI units. It is an interesting idea for future TW game but in practice for MTW2 probably quite boring. In all TW games I would prefer having units worth much more in manpower terms... so even a routing unit if it makes it alive off the battlefield could form the core of a new unit or contribute some manpower. RTW came closest with units subtracting from the population of the region formed out of but that put the AI at a rather large disadvantage. MTW2 negated unit creation minus to population but that along with minimal bonus due to XP resulted in individual units becoming rather interchangeable. Hopefully in the future something like a max cap per type of unit per region could be done... so losing a unit completely means the manpower pool takes some time to replenish before it is available again. Even better is if that is offset by the ability to recruit more manpower with a tax income/unrest penalty. Various RR/RC submods for some of the most popular MTW2 mods move in this direction but limited by the engine CA built. Ideally the differences between more civilized culture and less civilized could be modeled that way as well. More civilized cultures with higher populations could support more units if willing to tax lower and bear more unrest (partially countered by law/public order structures) while less civlized cultures have a more fragile economy which can support high number of units only for a set time before income penalty is leading the state to go bankrupt... however more men under arms could conversaely lead to higher public order (young trouble makers fighting far away) and allow higher taxes... though perhaps some units being only recruitable for a set duration- 5 seasons or something. Anyway, most of that is probably for another game.

Most battles had blood baths occurring with the rout so that part is historical. Units fighting to the death was more rare but happened in very militatistic cultures and with some elite units even in less militaristic cultures.

Using the current MTW2 system the best results could be not decreasing morale overall but increasing the rate fatigue sets in and also the rate units recover from being tired. With tired and exhausted units much more likely to rout it would encourage rotating units or at least keeping a reserve but that tired units wouldn't be finished for the entire battle. Just need to rest a bit as this would especially help AI when on higher difficulties it often would have routing units rally which might have a chance to rest before getting into battle again. Especially if fatigue rates made a bigger difference in unit speed. I haven't seen very many mods change unit speed noticeably with fatigue and not sure if that is due to narrow band of difference possible to mod or just never been done. The most annoying thing in battles for me besides the AI charging its general into the midst of my best spear unit for a glorious death is when exhausted units sprint away at the same speed as fresh units chasing them.

[fightermedic]

Using the current MTW2 system the best results could be not decreasing morale overall but increasing the rate fatigue sets in and also the rate units recover from being tired. With tired and exhausted units much more likely to rout it would encourage rotating units or at least keeping a reserve but that tired units wouldn't be finished for the entire battle. Just need to rest a bit as this would especially help AI when on higher difficulties it often would have routing units rally which might have a chance to rest before getting into battle again. Especially if fatigue rates made a bigger difference in unit speed. I haven't seen very many mods change unit speed noticeably with fatigue and not sure if that is due to narrow band of difference possible to mod or just never been done. The most annoying thing in battles for me besides the AI charging its general into the midst of my best spear unit for a glorious death is when exhausted units sprint away at the same speed as fresh units chasing them.

i absolutley agree with the fatigue part
but i have that certain fear that this is hardcoded

on a side note i think that the recovery ratio of wounded after battle should be greatly increased
maybe by granting every general a trait that does so

[Cyclops]

Routing before contact would make many battles almost unplayable or that only elite units would be used by human players since a handful of elite units could wipe up a full stack of low morale/prone to rout AI units. ...

That sounds historical to me. I guess you're right that the AI will not handle it.

...increasing the rate fatigue sets in and also the rate units recover from being tired. With tired and exhausted units much more likely to rout it would encourage rotating units or at least keeping a reserve but that tired units wouldn't be finished for the entire battle...

That sounds intriguing.

... The most annoying thing in battles for me ... is when exhausted units sprint away at the same speed as fresh units chasing them.

Yep. I tend to keep back a swift unit for pursuit (either fast skirmisher or light cav) and only allow myself a "full pursuit" (ie not end the battle at the first prompt) if I have one of those in good order, few or no casualties and not tired.