The Whore of Babylon

[ajaxfetish]

that the Church of Rome is Babylon

I think you'd be closer if you removed 'the church of.' At the time Revelation would have been written, the empire, not the pope, would be the one persecuting Christians. I don't think predicting the downfall of an institution that hardly existed yet, and which would be a strong point of Christianity once it was firmly established, would have resonated too well with the faithful. And as far as I know, in spite of internal concerns about corruption and efforts for reform, the papacy wasn't really villified by Christians until the reformation. Of course, I'm not an expert on the period. Maybe the papacy was already flexing its muscle, and this was resented in the east?

In prophetical language, a false or unfaithful church is called a harlot or a whore, both in the OT and the NT

I'd be interested to see convincing support for that claim.

Furthermore, Paul himself speaks of another power which was hindered from taking power by imperial Rome. "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" (2 The 2:6-7)

Most of your arguments against the imperial Rome interpretation are highly subjective, and could be interpreted either way. I'm not really sure of the meaning of this passage, for instance, and would be interested to hear the opinion of a disinterested Koine Greek scholar.

Ajax

[Louis VI the Fat]

I dunno. Is Materazzi involved? Then I'm tempted to agree.

[Beskar]

Washington DC was first named Rome and America was modelled after Rome. The whore of babylon has been often associated with the statue of Liberty,

America is the end of the world!

[Cute Wolf]

Resisting to post a link to a faithfreedom article that point that thingies on someone certain instead....

You never live where the Christianity is an oppresed minority don't you

[miotas]

Why must the seven hills be referring to Rome, couldn't it just as easily be referring to Jerusalem?

[PanzerJaeger]

Anyway, from the evidence given below, I think it is hard to deny the Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon the Great, and will give rise to the antichrist when he comes.

Is this serious? Do you really believe all this stuff or am I missing something?

[G. Septimus]

Is this serious? Do you really believe all this stuff or am I missing something?

well, I don't believe this end of the world thing................

[HoreTore]

Why must the seven hills be referring to Rome, couldn't it just as easily be referring to Jerusalem?

Bergen is a lot more fitting than both of them. And the whore is obviously Sissel Kyrkjebø.

[Shaka_Khan]

Washington DC was first named Rome and America was modelled after Rome. The whore of babylon has been often associated with the statue of Liberty,

America is the end of the world!

I always thought the Statue of Liberty looked hot. She reminds me of a young Brooke Shields.

[Don Corleone]

Hey Rhyfelwyr,

You forgot to mention that we Roman Catholics eat newborn babies. Beyond serving Moloch, that explains two other things about us:

1) The whole Fish on Friday thing... good for the digestion after 6 days of newborn babies...
2) The whole anti-abortion thing... can't eat 'em with all that saline on 'em.

I know my post is in utter distaste. Much the way I find the majority of yours through this thread.

[Strike For The South]

Hey Rhyfelwyr,

You forgot to mention that we Roman Catholics eat newborn babies. Beyond serving Moloch, that explains two other things about us:

1) The whole Fish on Friday thing... good for the digestion after 6 days of newborn babies...
2) The whole anti-abortion thing... can't eat 'em with all that saline on 'em.

I know my post is in utter distaste. Much the way I find the majority of yours through this thread.

I knew it....I bet it's the good protastent babies to....with our bonde hair and blue eyes

[gaelic cowboy]

Hmmm heretics

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm just having a bit of fun with y'all with the dramatic language and the epic apocalyptic scenario, I was reading a piece on Ian Paisley's EIPS site before I made the post lol...

But regardless to the extent to which I actually believe it, I do think that this position is dismissed too easily. Contrary to modern popular opinion, the belief that the Pope is the antichrist is not just some thing for lunatic fringe fundemantalists, it was in fact the dominant position of nearly all Protestants until probably the 20th Century. And tbh at first glance Rome is a pretty obvious option. I mean, we know that, in a tl;dr version of the OP:

1. the beast is said to sit on seven hills, which are those of a great city (given the context at the time Revelation was written, Jerusalem and then Rome first spring to mind)
2. this city will exercise great authority over the people of the earth (Rome appears much more suitable to this than Jerusalem)
3. the whore that rides the beast (in other words the church that sits on the city) will be decorated in purple and scarlet and great gems (purple and scarlet beign Roman colours to signify royalty/authority, and we all know the wealth of the Vatican)
4. the city is called Babylon (known to be a code word amongst Jews for Rome, when they couldn't identify it as such openly for fear of persecution)
5. the beast is called 'mystery', and is disguised as a lamb (ruling out the openly heathen Imperial Rome as the beast)
6. the beast will be destroyed by powers in league with the antichrist (again, ruling out Imperial Rome since it has fallen long before the antichrist has arisen)

As I said, I'm not really sure on this topic, but I would be happy if people at least concede that it's not ridiculous to come to the conclusion that the Roman Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation.

I think you'd be closer if you removed 'the church of.' At the time Revelation would have been written, the empire, not the pope, would be the one persecuting Christians. I don't think predicting the downfall of an institution that hardly existed yet, and which would be a strong point of Christianity once it was firmly established, would have resonated too well with the faithful. And as far as I know, in spite of internal concerns about corruption and efforts for reform, the papacy wasn't really villified by Christians until the reformation. Of course, I'm not an expert on the period. Maybe the papacy was already flexing its muscle, and this was resented in the east?

Revelation speaks of a woman sitting riding upon a beast, with the woman being decked in fine jewels and drinking of the cup of her fornication etc. My argument is, as you say, that the city of Rome is the beast. The Catholic Church is as the thread title states, the whore that sits upon the beast. And that is why Paul's comment in 2 The 2:6-7 that an even more monstrous power would arise within the city of Rome once the old power of Imperial Rome was removed. And this belief is why there are records from Tertullian of Christians praying for the preservation of Imperial Rome, since the power which would emerge after it would be far more terrible.

[Centurion1]

are you ********** i have never seen such blatant intolerance.

Hey congratulations if you think a single man is the antichrist for three centuries and he nver fufills that role over and over again dont you think your theory is probably wrong. Im, Im just done. always the world bashes Catholicism and we never defend ourselves, im not even going to have this argument.

go create a world in 2000 years or whatever you believe.

[Rhyfelwyr]

are you ********** i have never seen such blatant intolerance.

Hey congratulations if you think a single man is the antichrist for three centuries and he nver fufills that role over and over again dont you think your theory is probably wrong. Im, Im just done. always the world bashes Catholicism and we never defend ourselves, im not even going to have this argument.

go create a world in 2000 years or whatever you believe.

Boohoo, so Christianity doesn't have the peace and tolerance morality you got spoonfed out a textbook. Yes what a shocking thing to say, I must be a bible-thumper. But really, if the skeptics here actually think about is, how they can expect a text from ancient Palestine to reflect modern concepts of morality is beyond me.

To clarify here, I am not saying Chrisianity is a militant religion that wants to kill the infidels. Peace is great, but outright pacifism is stretching it. Likewise, it would be unChristian to force your beliefs on others, but Jesus nonetheless says he is the way the truth and the life. So if you follow someone else then its not my place to stop you, but Jesus was a hardline dude when it came to doing what was right. Funny how we never hear the stories about how he would turn people away if they refused to leave everything when they wanted to follow him. Tolerance is about letting people do their thing when you disagree with it, not saying that everyone must be right, which people nowadays seem to think (I blame multiculturalism).

In any case, I never said that all Pope's are the antichrist (obviously), what I said is that the antichrist will arise from within the Catholic Church, and take power for himself.

[drone]

In any case, I never said that all Pope's are the antichrist (obviously), what I said is that the antichrist will arise from within the Catholic Church, and take power for himself.

Wait a minute. So Obama's Roman Catholic?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[gaelic cowboy]

Scanning the thread the Cowboy tut tuts to himself about how silly it all is really in the modern day world. Unbeknownst he pick's up throwaway mobile phone and dials the number of a double glazing firm thereby setting in motion an improbable set of conincidences that will end in the Beast returning to Earth. The cowboy returns to normal service unaware he is effectively a catholic cylon in service to the beast mwah ha ha ha hears music in background Ave, Ave! Versus Christus! Ave Satani!

[ajaxfetish]

As I said, I'm not really sure on this topic, but I would be happy if people at least concede that it's not ridiculous to come to the conclusion that the Roman Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation.

Oh, I don't think it's ridiculous (I'm pretty sure that has been my church's official position). I just think it's wrong.

Ajax

[KukriKhan]

C'mon... the antichrist will be whomever sits as head of the UN with an actual army at his/her disposal. If thought everybody knew that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

C'mon... the antichrist will be whomever sits as head of the UN with an actual army at his/her disposal. If thought everybody knew that.

Nooooo.... It's the EU, treaty od Rome, remember?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Nooooo.... It's the EU, treaty od Rome, remember?

The Pope will take seat number 666 in the EU.

[gaelic cowboy]

The Pope will take seat number 666 in the EU.

Evidence if any was needed that Ian Paisley is a Loon the seat 666 is indeed empty

[Banquo's Ghost]

Evidence if any was needed that Ian Paisley is a Loon the seat 666 is indeed empty

Actually, whilst I loathed the man for years, it cannot be disregarded that in the end, Dr Paisley overcame enough of his prejudices to emerge as one of the great statesmen of our island. In the end, it took the ultimate hardliners on both sides of the political divide to make the peace, and he deserves to be remembered fondly for making that peace, whatever his beliefs. In my opinion, that's the real truth of Christian charity - finding it in one's heart to abandon long-held "interpretations" of hatred and find the way to peace when all about you want the much easier road of war.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Contrary to modern popular opinion, the belief that the Pope is the antichrist is not just some thing for lunatic fringe fundemantalists, it was in fact the dominant position of nearly all Protestants until probably the 20th Century. And tbh at first glance Rome is a pretty obvious option.

Well, the dominant position of nearly all Catholics until probably the 20th century was the belief that Protestants were devilish heretics that should be tortured/broken on the wheel/used for garden mood lighting upon detection. This is why Religion is Fun ® and should be available to all children.

4. the city is called Babylon (known to be a code word amongst Jews for Rome, when they couldn't identify it as such openly for fear of persecution)

Just to indulge my curiosity, why is the city called Babylon not, y'know, the actual city called Babylon? (Yes, I know - too simple).

As I said, I'm not really sure on this topic, but I would be happy if people at least concede that it's not ridiculous to come to the conclusion that the Roman Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation.

What's ridiculous, my friend, is that anyone actually thinks there might be a beast of Revelation. Entertaining, but ridiculous.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well, the dominant position of nearly all Catholics until probably the 20th century was the belief that Protestants were devilish heretics that should be tortured/broken on the wheel/used for garden mood lighting upon detection. This is why Religion is Fun ® and should be available to all children.

Aye, a fine example of the Catholic Church to adapt to maintain its power. 500 years ago if you disagreed on a minor point of doctrine you were burnts at the stake, now they are building a palace of all religions in Rome and JP2 says every person in the world is saved.

Just to indulge my curiosity, why is the city called Babylon not, y'know, the actual city called Babylon? (Yes, I know - too simple).

A fair point, but put it to the rest of the criteria. Was it built on 7 hills (was it, I don't know?)? Did it exercise great influence over the peoples of the earth? Is it clad in scarlet and purple and fine gems (apparently not, since it's rubble now). As I said, the term Babylon was a codeword which Jews used for Rome since for obvious reasons they couldn't speak against Rome directly.

What's ridiculous, my friend, is that anyone actually thinks there might be a beast of Revelation. Entertaining, but ridiculous.

And to the early patriarchs, the idea that one might claim supremacy over all others was ridicolous. To a Catholic in the Reformation, the idea that a Pope might claim infallability was ridiculous. To a Catholic 100 years ago, the idea that a Pope might build a palace of all religions in Rome was ridiculous. To everyone 2,000 years ago, the idea that the Jews might survive unlike any other diaspora was ridiculous. To anyone 200 years ago, the idea that a Jewish state might once again exist in its historic homeland was ridiculous. In the early days of the Jewish settlement when Palestine barren and Jews and Arabs shared their Palestinian identity, the idea that Israel might be divided along the lines Daniel states seemed ridicolous. A lot of crazy stuff has happened, how much is left to complete the picture...

[gaelic cowboy]

A lot of crazy stuff has happened, how much is left to complete the picture...

Zero is left to complete the picture because its all tribal iron age mythmaking

[Rhyfelwyr]

Zero is left to complete the picture because its all tribal iron age mythmaking

And yet it's all happening all around us.

[Kadagar_AV]

Isn't it cute when people try to drag christian beliefs into an intellectual debate?

It's like having a worldview centered around the easter bunny, only, you dont get candy :(

WHERE IS MY CANDY, damnit!

[G. Septimus]

*MK Fatality music*

[PanzerJaeger]

What's ridiculous, my friend, is that anyone actually thinks there might be a beast of Revelation. Entertaining, but ridiculous.

Thank you.