About siege engines... PRICE?

[Duguntz]

Hello everybody! well, i started a Koinon Hellenon campaing (that lacks attention due to my Sweboz conquest on-going). Hey I tought it pretty nice to be able to do some interesting siege battle, to destroy walls with balistas and onagers, killing infantry with another mass destruction weapon! So it's with excitement that I enticipate those siege... only to see that the siege weapons are so expensive the today's american army couldn't afford them! I mean, 30 000 mnai for a balista? Why is that! Most marching armies had their inginers with them, for the sole purpuse to build on the spot the equipement they needed. those that couldn't be build on the spot, were brought in pieces. All the same, it was really possible to build artillery. Why then in EB does it cost half your empire salary to build one of those money eater? I'm no historian, but I doubt that it's for historical reason... Why the maintening cost of one of those artillery should be the same than a whole fleet?

[vartan]

30.000 mnai siege equipment should be the stone projector (catapult). If you simply want an arrow projector you can get 3 or 6 for that cost (5k or 10k versions). If you're dealing with stone walls, just sap them, as for wooden walls, use rams.

[Duguntz]

Yes, that i know! the question wasn't what was the best way to storm a city. but just why are they so expensive!

[vartan]

Yes, that i know! the question wasn't what was the best way to storm a city. but just why are they so expensive!

That's what I wanted to ask regarding this house I wanted to buy. Then I realized: it wasn't on sale, it was probably the highest altitude house in the town, it was recently remodeled, etc. I don't think I have that kind of treasury yet!

[Intranetusa]

That's what I wanted to ask regarding this house I wanted to buy. Then I realized: it wasn't on sale, it was probably the highest altitude house in the town, it was recently remodeled, etc. I don't think I have that kind of treasury yet!

Your analogies are too complex for the average joe to understand... :P

[Magraev]

I agree that siege weapons are way too expensive. If you factor in, that they will slow you down even more, you must reach the conclusion, that they are useless.

It's too bad, but I felt the same way about vanilla catapults etc, much easier and faster to take walls by other methods.

[Duguntz]

Yeah, still pity, coz it was a lovely sight to see 4 rocks on fire knocking down a tower!

[Cute Wolf]

Maybe the EB team decide to prevent the stupid idiot AI from spamming them all over the place... they are done to prevent such AI behaviour, but at the cost of that things won't be very effective...

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Assaulting a city with stone walls is perhaps the most difficult job for an ancient army to perform. Such assaults were rare. Hannibal didn't dare to even consider assaulting Rome, for example, let alone actually do it.

An assault like that is meant to be very tough indeed. So a 30,000 mnai cost for the best seige weapon in the game is intended to deter you from making such assaults.

In the Hellenic world (Koinon Hellenon and Macedon) starved strong enemy cities with stone walls into submission, rather than risk terrible losses by assaulting them. Macedon did not assault Athens in 268-263 BC, the seige lasted for years until the Athenians surrendered. The Romans had Syracuse under siege for over two years in 214-212 BC, they took the city only through treachery, assaulting it during a parley.

[Ludens]

Why is that! Most marching armies had their inginers with them, for the sole purpuse to build on the spot the equipement they needed. those that couldn't be build on the spot, were brought in pieces.

Er... no. Military engineers did exist, but this is something that only well-organized, wealthy states could afford. Ballista and other powerful siege bows require certain wood types to be effective: they can't be constructed from a few trees hacked down on the spot. The men who operated them needed advanced knowledge (for the time) of both mathematics and material properties, as well as the craftsmanship required to season the wood and build the bows. I suspect that most of the price represents the costs of training or recruiting such men. They would have been the classical equivalent of nuclear engineers: a small but international group of highly-sought experts.

But even taking that into account, the weapons are still too expensive. I guess this is to counter their being overpowered: siege weapons were rarely used in field battles, and it would still take weeks rather than hours to knock a wall down.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Aren't numbers of siege engines like numbers of men in EB? The 20/10/5 ratio for small, large and huge unit size? So one siege engine in an EB battle might be equal to 10 such engines historically, meaning each engine and crew costs only 3,000 mnai historically, not 30,000.

[XrexXxarX]

the thing is, expensive as they are they REALLY arent that effective i liked the vanilla catapults (but thats pretty much it to besides the soundtrack for vanilla) those 1 talent stone throwers can't do squat against units its pathethic and with large walls i tend to need 2 of them to destroy the gate and 2 towers :S so they aint worth you're money never tried the smaller versions though... i should check m out

[athanaric]

The only efficient artillery unit in EB is the smallest type, as they have six or so pieces per unit, with a range of 350 (380 if you're Roman). Fun effect against phalanxes.

[Macilrille]

They do however, often break enemy morale, and that is their main purpose in one or two of my Marian Legions.

That is before Motherboard fried *weeps*

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

with large walls i tend to need 2 of them to destroy the gate and 2 towers :S

Large walls? Do you mean Large Stone Walls, the big ones, bigger than the normal stone walls?

Historically, those were the best walls money could buy. And they were practically indestructible in the ancient era, as long as they were adequately defended. If walls that strong were easy to knock down with stone-throwing catapults, the even more expensive cannon would never have been invented!

You should, historically speaking, consider yourself very lucky indeed if you manage to breach large stone walls at all.

[ARCHIPPOS]

Yep! up until the cannon came the best way to take cities with huge epic massive walls wasto starve the defenders.A lengthy process by all means (and unhealthy because of the hygiene problems that emerged)...

[Macilrille]

Large walls? Do you mean Large Stone Walls, the big ones, bigger than the normal stone walls?

Historically, those were the best walls money could buy. And they were practically indestructible in the ancient era, as long as they were adequately defended. If walls that strong were easy to knock down with stone-throwing catapults, the even more expensive cannon would never have been invented!

You should, historically speaking, consider yourself very lucky indeed if you manage to breach large stone walls at all.

Chartage's in 150- 148 BC would probably have qualified, took the Romans two years of siege to breach/storm them and take the city.

[Ibrahim]

well, I see no problems in having super expansive siege weapons. as Ludens pointed out, they were indeed sophisticated machines for the timeperiod, and engineers were definately needed for the expertise.

but it doesn't stop me from including 1 such 1 talent device in each field army; afterall, I evidently make a decent treasurer

(seriously, 60,000 mnai a season is good money).

[vartan]

Hannibal didn't dare to even consider assaulting Rome, for example, let alone actually do it.

How dare you! A man with balls like Hannibal's...not consider assaulting Rome?!

[Duguntz]

Hannibal was the foundator of our Romaioktonoi group... he was dreaming of assaulting Rome every night!!!

[Cute Wolf]

Hannibal was the foundator of our Romaioktonoi group... he was dreaming of assaulting Rome every night!!!

I think the founder is Megas Maion, Basileus ton Basileon of Makedon....

[Duguntz]

I was cynical! If there's a great general that's worthy of the name Romaioktonoi, it is Hannibal! remember how at 9 years old he sweared that as soon as age would permit him, he'd use fire and steel to stop the destiny of rome!

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I was cynical! If there's a great general that's worthy of the name Romaioktonoi, it is Hannibal! remember how at 9 years old he sweared that as soon as age would permit him, he'd use fire and steel to stop the destiny of rome!

Ah, but that's the critical difference, you see. Hannibal didn't think he'd need to actually TAKE the city of Rome to stop Rome's destiny. In Hellenic and Phoenician warfare, states made peace when they were clearly beaten. They didn't keep fighting no matter what like Rome did.

So Hannibal created a army superbly suited to defeating Roman armies in the field. An army based mostly on cavalry shock action, like Alexander the Great's. It was not an army suited to assaulting one of the largest and most heavily-fortified cities in Europe. In city assaults, cavalry is useless. Storming a city is a job for infantry alone.

Hannibal wanted to dominate all of Italy EXCEPT the city of Rome - by winning great victories in the open field, and by doing so, persuading all of Rome's allies to change sides - in order to force Rome to the peace table. After which a peace would be made, turning Carthage into the superpower of Europe with many Italian allies, and reducing Rome back to where she had been 150 years earlier in 350 BC, just one of many small, independent Italian city-states with little influence outside her own borders. That was an achievable goal for Hannibal's army. (Provided all of Rome's allies did change sides...which they didn't.)

The utter and total destruction of the city of Rome by assault was not - at least not by Hannibal's historical army. You'd need a absolutely gigantic (200,000+) army of Gallic and Italian infantry to do that job, well supplied with grain shipped from Carthage, and with a great many siege engines. Remember Hannibal fought the war with Rome largely with his own resources, from Carthaginian Spain. He didn't get a lot of help from the Carthaginian Senate back in Carthage...basically Carthage tried to win the war on the cheap. Also most of the Carthaginian Senate was jealous of Hannibal, and worried that he might try to make himself King of Carthage after he'd won the war.

[Ludens]

[vartan]

Topic has been thought out. The rest is really unnecessary and I can't believe you actually wrote that up Scato! Makes me want to put down an emoticon!

[Ludens]

Topic has been thought out. The rest is really unnecessary and I can't believe you actually wrote that up Scato! Makes me want to put down an emoticon!

[Cute Wolf]

Ok, let me bring back the original discussion... how did you notice that the AI often spam onagers in RTW? that's because the onagers are ridiculously cheap along with high damage

[anubis88]

IMHO artilery is really overpriced; Sure, IRL it may have costed this much, but they are bloody useles against infantry, and for attacking walls you can build huge siege equipment free of charge. Is there perhaps any way that we could change building points to Mnai? For EB II if not else :D

[Macilrille]

There is a reason siege engines are useless against infantry; because they were. Apart from small field pieces such as the carro-ballistae, etc. How many times can an onager fire Real Life before the infantry charge closes? How many men can a few rocks kill? When did Onagers start to fire napalm? The RTW and MTW II KD's engines as well as Gladiator Movie vastly overestimate the damage and dramatic effects of siege engines/artillery. Because it looks good and is "cool" and all the 14-YO will love it...

[Duguntz]

And the 23 years old as well I can assure you! when we look at a movie we know dosen't represent the life of a real caracter, or of a certain event in history, we know we're waiting more for entertainment than for historical accuracy! and I was veeery please with the movie!

and as for the topic, well, yeah, RTW exagerate with the ridiculous price of onager, but in EB it is as much ridiculous, only the other way around, by being waaaayyy too expensive! i don't say to pay 4000 mnai like in vanilla for them, but between 4000 and 30 000, plus upkeep cost, there's a middle wich i think should have been respected! well, of corse, it is only personal opinion!