Map shroud?

[Andy1984]

True, an accurate representation of an area isn't necessary for many purposes (including travelling). Knowing where roads or rivers lead to, having at least some villagers (or banditing allies) to talk to,... could just as well bring an army to it's destiny. And then there is of course trade (think about the amber route, or depictions on ceramics found in Belgium that very strongly resembled Greek ceramic patterns). Trade may not imply direct contact (as massed migrations suggest), but at least it offers those who buy the end-goods the (possibly severly disformed) stories of the merchants or other intermediataries.

[The General]

No. I doubt that antic people really knew where other countries were. Look at the greek understanding of the world an the earliest map we have. Impossible for someone to have an overview like in Total war^^. The system is incredible unrealistic so I wouldnt bother trying to improve it unless it is for gameplay reasons.

Funny, I always thought the ancients had relatively good maps of their surroundings.

The world according to Hekatæus, 500 BCE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The world according to Herodotus, 440 BCE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Reconstruction of the Orbis Terrarum, 20CE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Reconstruction of the world map according to Dionysius, 124CE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ptolemy's world map, 2nd century CE (after EB time period, but not that much tbh):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course, tribal societies would probably have a lesser understanding of the geography of the world, but for example, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for a Gallic tribe to roughly know the general landscape in Gaul, the location of the Pyrenées, the South(-East)ern portions of Britain, the Alps and Northern Italy and even possibly southern Germany (the "Hallstatt" region). They were ardent traders after all, and the Helvetii for example planned to migrate from the Swiss plateau across Gaul to the Atlantic coast.

I don't think the unlifted fog of war translates as comprehensive knowledge about the location of every little stream, rock or cops of woods in that particular area/province, but rather a general knowledge or familiarity with the landscape. Thus, I don't think it would be unrealistic for nations and tribes to have knowledge about "their" lands, the lands surrounding theirs (especially if not divided by, say, a mountain range or some other natural barrier) and the lands of their traditional allies, foes and trade partners. For me, the need for exploration would create immersion in the gameplay, as opposed to the current state where all nations have discovered all there is to know about the geography of the world.

[jirisys]

Funny, I always thought the ancients had relatively good maps of their surroundings.

The world according to Hekatæus, 500 BCE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The world according to Herodotus, 440 BCE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Reconstruction of the Orbis Terrarum, 20CE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Reconstruction of the world map according to Dionysius, 124CE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ptolemy's world map, 2nd century CE (after EB time period, but not that much tbh):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course, tribal societies would probably have a lesser understanding of the geography of the world, but for example, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for a Gallic tribe to roughly know the general landscape in Gaul, the location of the Pyrenées, the South(-East)ern portions of Britain, the Alps and Northern Italy and even possibly southern Germany (the "Hallstatt" region). They were ardent traders after all, and the Helvetii for example planned to migrate from the Swiss plateau across Gaul to the Atlantic coast.

I don't think the unlifted fog of war translates as comprehensive knowledge about the location of every little stream, rock or cops of woods in that particular area/province, but rather a general knowledge or familiarity with the landscape. Thus, I don't think it would be unrealistic for nations and tribes to have knowledge about "their" lands, the lands surrounding theirs (especially if not divided by, say, a mountain range or some other natural barrier) and the lands of their traditional allies, foes and trade partners. For me, the need for exploration would create immersion in the gameplay, as opposed to the current state where all nations have discovered all there is to know about the geography of the world.

Very true, but please spoil the images, they're quite big

~Jirisys (pretending to be a mod, AGAIN!)

[B-Wing]

Very true, but please spoil the images, they're quite big

Funny thing to say after quoting the entire thread, images and all.

[vartan]

Funny thing to say after quoting the entire thread, images and all.

Seconded. The images are simply hotlinked as far as I can tell, and spoiling them unfortunately doesn't do any good, except for collapsing the individual post. The images still load in the background, and not only when you click on the spoiler.

[jirisys]

Seconded. The images are simply hotlinked as far as I can tell, and spoiling them unfortunately doesn't do any good, except for collapsing the individual post. The images still load in the background, and not only when you click on the spoiler.

Yes but you don't get the hateful pushing up of the page if you spoil them, it's not the loading as much the problem, i hate that

~Jirisys (i don't know what to put in here)

[The General]

Eep, my bad, fixed now.

[Cyclops]

Very good point raised by the OP. The shroud is an available tool worth investigating.

I wonder does the shroud influence AI expansion? Do AI factions strike out for cities they can see ahead of cities they cannot? Does a faction surrounded by shroud expand slower than one which is not?

If so this could be a uselful tool to channel the Saka into India, the Sauromatae into the Caucasus.

Maybe it could be used to keep some factions quiet early on while they feel their way in the dark (eg Sweboz, Casse, Getai somewhat hemmed in) while others hit the ground (or their neighbours) running (Romani and Carthage close to the brink at game start, AS and Ptolemaioi ready to go too).

If certain minor powers were "off radar" to their bulky neighbours they might avoid some unpleasantness, not so much when they are AI as when they are human controlled (eg early game human Hayasdan vs the relentless AI AS spamstacks)

While it is desirable to give factions historical levels of geographic knowledge, the "scripting" or narrative driving potential of this tool has me more intrigued.