EBNOM official discussion thread

[MButcher]

I'm amazed at the progress you guys are making. Ptolemaic fan-boys everywhere thank you!

[CaesarAugustus]

Very nice preview, the time period definitely puts a whole new spin on the Ptoelmaic faction... I am amazed at the progress you guys are making with such a small team, your time and efforts are appreciated! :)

Oh and why was the descision made to change the Ptolies colour white?

[Lionheart]

Thanks for the words.
This is progressing well mainly i believe because we all have a serious passion for the world of Rome Total War.

About the color this is only a suposition from my part but i believe that white is the basic color used in Egypt i believe. Perhaps behind that the decisition to make the Ptolemais faction color white.

Perhaps some other preview will appear soon...

[Tanit]

If you guys want any help on Numidia/Mauretania just send me a PM, I did a bunch of research for late era Numidia before when a previous late era mod was planned.

[Lionheart]

Actualy i do have a doubt.
In late Numidia the Garamantes and the Gaetuli provided or possessed somo cavalry unit that could perhaps be added to the roster unit of Numidia.

Also besides Hiempsal II, Juba I do you know anymore family members or sons that served Hiempsal II or Juba I? Or perhaps some notorious general.

Also about Mauretania they will not appear as a faction however they will be eleutheroi. I know that Bocchus I is the king. However do you have the names of the heirs of Bocchus I or brothers?

[Tanit]

Answer 1: Yes, the Gaetulians provided infantry and cavalry for Jugurtha, later Numidian rulers, and even for Roman legions. The Gaetulians were renowned for their bravery and loyalty. I have done a concept for including them in EB2 but they will not be in the first release. If you ask nicely gg2 or I can send you the concept info ;). The Garamantes, meanwhile, had virtually nothing to do with Numidia or Mauritania and existed in their own little kingdom fighting only the occaisonal war, such as against Rome under Lucius Cornelius Balbus, until after the fall of the Roman empire when they expanded into a full fledged African empire that thrived until the invasion of Islam.

Answer 2: I have in my notes that Hiempsal II had a brother named Mastanabal, but I cannot find the source reference. If you can find the source that would be something. As for other Numidians, Hiarbas is a governor who started a revolt in 81 against Hiempsal II, which was ended by Pompey on Sulla's orders to restore the faithful Hiempsal. Dabar is a cousin of Hiempsal who featured in the Jugurthine war and was young then. he might still be alive. Sthembanus was the last son of Massinissa, born only a short time before he died during the third Punic war, meaning he could still be alive at 60, his father lived past 90. Jugurtha had a son named Oxynta. I think he died in the war, but I can't recall, something to look into.

Answer 3: Bocchus has three sons, Volux, Bocchus II and Bogud. Bocchus II was the last king because he killed Bogud, no one says what happens to Volux, and has no heirs. Bogud was married to Eunoë. Look through Caesar's 'African War', there are a ton of nobles and generals mentioned. I myself have only skimmed it, but it contains a lot of detail.

[keravnos]

I am posting here to present some info on the Hashmonayim, (Hasmoneans), who 'd be the reason I am watching this mod.

Some sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean

Their King and High Priest at the time of the beginning of the mod.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Jannaeus

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...nsOfLight.html

From there,

The army is divided into 3 arms - infantry, cavalry and what are called towers in 1QM, but artillery in 4Q491. The equipment of only one sort of infantry is described in any detail. These men carry a shield 2.5 cubits long and 1.5 cubits wide (approximately 115 by 69 cm, but perhaps 105 by 63 cm depending upon the size of the cubit). This has in the past been interpreted as a Roman scutum, but its size is rather too small, much more like the thureoi depicted on many monuments of Hellenistic mercenaries. Each such infantryman carries a sword, 1.5 cubits long, and a spear, 7 cubits long (ca. 320 cm, or 10'8"). No armour is mentioned, no javelins are carried. Such infantrymen would appear to be nothing more or less than standard thureophoroi, save for the apparent lack of a helmet.8

According to 1QM - 5.3-4 and 5.16-17, the infantry are organised in divisions 1000 men across, and 7 ranks/lines deep. Evidently, each such formation comprises the infantry complement of one of the four "camps", since we are told (1QM - 9.4) that the total number of infantry in the army is 28000.9 Each division is divided into three lines, apparently separated, at least at deployment, by a 30 cubit gap. The first line ordered into battle is comprised of 2 ranks/lines of slingers.10 They are to deliver seven volleys before they are ordered to retire and take their station on each flank of the formation. The number 7 is rather symbolic and might not be taken literally, although there is nothing on the face of it improbable about it. The next line ordered forwards are 3 ranks/lines of javelinmen. The first rank is to hurl 7 javelins, then the second rank likewise, and then the third rank 7 more volleys, before they too are ordered to retire, though unlike the slingers they do not move to the flanks. Again, the number of volleys may be merely symbolic, but Roman velites are variously reported to have carried either 5 or 7 javelins so once again, the number is not itself implausible.

The final line, of older "men of the rule", comprises two ranks/lines of infantrymen, the first with shield and spear, the second with shield and sword.11 The description of the infantryman given above most probably applies to these men then, either the first or possibly both ranks. These men are to fight in close order (4Q491 - 13.7), and deliver the final blow to the enemy battle line. Once it has been routed, the trumpets sound the signal for all 7 ranks/lines to advance together to inflict as great a slaughter as possible.12

Two types of cavalry are mentioned. Each rank of infantry is to be accompanied by 50 cavalry "of the rule", mature men aged 40-50, equipped with a lance 8 cubits long (ca. 365 cm, or 12'), helmet, greaves, cuirasse and round shield. There is a lacuna in the text that has been filled in by some translators to read in whole "they, and their mounts, shall wear cuirasses, helmets and greaves", but its is hard to see why horses should be wearing greaves like their riders, and the words "mounts shall wear" should be probably be replaced by something else.13 The total number of these heavy cavalrymen is given as 1400, confirming the arrangement of 4 divisions, each with 7 ranks. The rest of the (presumably lighter) cavalry, who appear to be equipped with bows and javelins, are to be 200 strong for every 1000 infantry, marshaled in 7 lines on both flanks of each division. This should total 5600 such cavalry, but the text actually says 4600 are required. Presumably a copyist has made a mistake somewhere, and this has been incorporated into 1QM as it has survived, since it is noted that this totals 6000 cavalry in all, "500 per tribe" - this being the only mention of a tribe in the main body of text outside of column 4. It would thus appear that the cavalry total was originally envisaged as 7000 men.14

The (light) cavalry are to form up 7 deep on each flank of the infantry formation; the disposition of the heavier cavalry is not stated, but may be assumed to be similar given that they too are said to be one rank deep per infantry rank. The cavalry are probably intended to advance and retreat in time with the infantry lines, covering their flanks (1QM - 7.4-5, 4Q491 - 1.12), but it is not clear which cavalry are assigned this duty; they are also mentioned in passing in the pursuit of the routed foe. All-in-all, the function and role of the cavalry is decidedly under reported compared with that of the infantry.

I would also advise buying,
Osprey Fortress 065 The Forts of Judaea 168 BC AD 73 From the Maccabees to The Fall of Masada.

The armies of everyone by that time were Romani like. I don't think there can be doubts about that. The very fact that Alexander Yonatan had to face civil war means that he was relying on mercs, like everyone else at that time. Mercs like the ones below.
http://www.ancientbattles.com/thureo...ureophoros.jpg

Their best troops that we know of because of Josephus are the "Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi" or Hundred fighters, who were considered able to outfight a hundred opponents each.

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/vie...p?f=19&t=28448

Other pictorial sources

[ex]

Egypt soldiers of that time,
http://s122.photobucket.com/albums/o...naSoldiers.jpg

-some pictures from here sent over to Novus Ordo Mundi dev forum-
(This post will be updated to include more information I have, which I can't access right now).

Historical helmets they 'd use.

side

face




and this one, thracian one shown, found in many depictions.

shown here

and here


This one,

A great depiction of a helmet worn at the time and how it was worn is the following,


Notice the thunderbolts adorning the side guards of the helmet.

[gamegeek2]

Ah, we have a use for our Spathaphoroi after all...

We're adding Euzonoi (helmet, thureos, shortsword and javelin), Thureophoroi (helmet, thureos, oh spear, and javelin)

Thureophoroi from EB are renamed to Longchephoroi, and we also have Machairophoroi (machaira/kopis, linothorax, thureos, javelin, helmet)

We will also keep the Ioudaioi Taxeis around, and have a unit we can use for the Ekatonamachoi - it was orignally going to be a heavy sword unit for the Syrian factions, but apparently it's only really historical for the Hasmoneans. It has chain mail, a Celtic sword, heavy javelins, helmet, and greaves, with a thureos for a shield.

[keravnos]

That's good to know, thing is I have to insist on having a bronze face thureos as historically attested. I don't understand why it shouldn't since we know that the round aspis shield otherwise known as "hoplon" had bronze coating as well. It would make sense to have a bronze coated thureos for the elite troops of the Hasmonayim. Josephs' testimony makes this imperative.

This one,
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...dinBritain.jpg

[CaesarAugustus]

We will also keep the Ioudaioi Taxeis around, and have a unit we can use for the Ekatonamachoi - it was orignally going to be a heavy sword unit for the Syrian factions, but apparently it's only really historical for the Hasmoneans. It has chain mail, a Celtic sword, heavy javelins, helmet, and greaves, with a thureos for a shield.

Factions in the plural? Interesting, though I thought Tigranes' Hayastan was in control of Syria by the start date of this mod. Are you perhaps planning to represent a Seleucid rump state?

[vartan]

Factions in the plural? Interesting, though I thought Tigranes' Hayastan was in control of Syria by the start date of this mod. Are you perhaps planning to represent a Seleucid rump state?

Tigran (usually mistakenly dubbed Tigranes as per the Greco-centrism ever-so-present in the field of history up through the 20th century) was throned ruler of Syria early during the 80s BC and had to conceded in the 60s BC. More specific dates should be easy to find for historians! hah!

What are the so-called 'Syrian factions' ?

[gamegeek2]

Syrian is a broad reference to the Levant, in this context. Perhaps I should've said Levantine.

Kos, PM me and I'll give you the forum link...

[CaesarAugustus]

Tigran (usually mistakenly dubbed Tigranes as per the Greco-centrism ever-so-present in the field of history up through the 20th century) was throned ruler of Syria early during the 80s BC and had to conceded in the 60s BC. More specific dates should be easy to find for historians! hah!

Ah of course I forgot that little detail, I suppose for consistency's sake I should have said ''Tigran's Hayastan'' or ''Tigranes' Armenia''. :P

Syrian is a broad reference to the Levant, in this context. Perhaps I should've said Levantine.

Still, the only factions occupying the Levant at this time would be Hayastan, Nabatea and the Hasmoneans, right?

[Lionheart]

Thank's Tanit for your informations they will be kept in our mind specialy regarding the names of rulers and heirs and even generals.
About Gaetulim at the presente they are only representated as infantry however a cavalry unit will be good. I will talk with the people in our internal forums and see what can be done.

About the Garamantes they also possess cavalry?

[gamegeek2]

Ah of course I forgot that little detail, I suppose for consistency's sake I should have said ''Tigran's Hayastan'' or ''Tigranes' Armenia''. :P

Still, the only factions occupying the Levant at this time would be Hayastan, Nabatea and the Hasmoneans, right?

The Ptollies had a pretty big stake in the Levant.

[vartan]

The Ptollies had a pretty big stake in the Levant.

Except that by the time period during which the mod begins, the Ptolemaic Kingdom was pretty much a vassal of the Roman Empire.

EDIT: Or 'Ptolemaic Empire', if you could still call it that.

[gamegeek2]

Keravnos, can you delete some PM's? Your box is full.

[keravnos]

Will do.
Done.

[cathar1209]

Just a random word of congrats on the work done so far and for the rest of the developpment of the mod. Personally i'm very curious to see what do you have in your sleeve for SPQR, namely after the establishment of the Empire, around 20 BC. With new scripts and reforms for the romans, playing as SPQR in Novus Ordo Mundi may be an unique experience.
Cheers!

[Atraphoenix]

Please help my modding with a vote.

Thanks
Atra

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-EB-time-frame

[Tanit]

Thank's Tanit for your informations they will be kept in our mind specialy regarding the names of rulers and heirs and even generals.
About Gaetulim at the presente they are only representated as infantry however a cavalry unit will be good. I will talk with the people in our internal forums and see what can be done.

About the Garamantes they also possess cavalry?

Yes, check the preview 'Native Peoples of North Africa' for EB2. The Garamantines used infantry, cavalry, chariots and archers. There is a lot of info in the unit descriptions. The archers used a simple bow, no recurve to it.

[jirisys]

A little eyecandy for the recent Preview



~Jirisys (Userbar!)

[LDC]

So guys, what's our next preview?

[Rahwana]

So guys, what's our next preview?

soon to be determined

[anubis88]

Actually it's determined... But i won't reveal it yet... It's a surprise... If people will ask nicely then they may see it soon... If not... Wel... :D

[Tanit]

Please?

[vartan]

Please?

Aren't you part of the history team? haha.

[Nyz]

Actually it's determined... But i won't reveal it yet... It's a surprise... If people will ask nicely then they may see it soon... If not... Wel... :D

Well Anubis, perhaps you have to make the preview by your own before it will be revealed out... jeng jeng jengggggg!

[Tanit]

Aren't you part of the history team? haha.

Nah, busy with EB2, I just offered some advice on the Numidians. Other than a specialty in North West Africa, I'm only as qualified as any other historian on other areas.

[anubis88]

Well, Tanit, if you ever feel like it to help us out in other departments, you would be more then welcome.

All I can say thus far about the preview is that it's going to be waaaaaaay better then the Ptolemaic one... Even the faction is much stronger at this point in time