Help needed with Hayasdan Orontid Reforms

[vartan]

I agrre with what you are saying. That's why I continue this thread, in hope to understand how it works exactly. My questions is, why would a cataphract use anything but his mace once the charge is done? Why do we get horsemen pushing other units with their spear in close combat, instead of striking with their maces or kopis blades, or axes or whatever it is they carry? In other words, why should we have to Alt + right click?

No no no. Do not derail the issue at hand please. At least give the community that much, we all deserve it kdrakak. It's an engine thing. Don't be lazy, just go ahead and Alt+right click. That is not the issue.

Here's the problem and what my assumption is. My assumption is that we must forget the animations for a second. That is, when you alt-charge, the cata is using it's MACE in the charge, and we can't see that. And because it is "charging with its mace", the charge value is different (about half) than primary charge. If this is why the team placed differing charge values, then I agree, it's fine. ALL it means is that the player needs to primary charge (right-click), and when the charge dies down, simply alt-attack to switch to secondary (mace, sword, etc). This may as well be the case.

[kdrakak]

No no no. Do not derail the issue at hand please. At least give the community that much, we all deserve it kdrakak. It's an engine thing. Don't be lazy, just go ahead and Alt+right click. That is not the issue.

Here's the problem and what my assumption is. My assumption is that we must forget the animations for a second. That is, when you alt-charge, the cata is using it's MACE in the charge, and we can't see that. And because it is "charging with its mace", the charge value is different (about half) than primary charge. If this is why the team placed differing charge values, then I agree, it's fine. ALL it means is that the player needs to primary charge (right-click), and when the charge dies down, simply alt-attack to switch to secondary (mace, sword, etc). This may as well be the case.

I am not trying to derail at all. I am just trying to find out what the engine's mechanics are. And in the process i make the assumption that they were fashioned in a way that makes sense. And this does not seem to be too much. If there are multiple attack values, multiple attack speed values and multiple charge values it should be public knowlegde for the people playing the game. And on a second note why should the Amrenian Armoured Horse-archers' charge with the spear not be effective against armour while the same performed by noble cataphracts be effective against armour? To me, that implies that the effective against armour part probably refers to the mace attack. And lastly charge value (primary I guess) for the former is greater than that of the latter (44 and 37 respectively if I remember correctly). Again I am not derailing. I am not out to make an impression. I am just hoping to get some informed answers from people who might know these things better than I do.

p.s. Vartan it seems to me that you have changed your views in the last two posts. Can you clarify what you believe to be the case on the issue?

[vartan]

Just read posts 18 and 20. I haven't changed anything. We don't know how most things work. CA isn't obligated to release all info. Period. Those two posts are just my theory on how it might work (i.e. might as well work, or how it practically works, take it as you will).

More charge for an armoured horse archer versus a kataphract makes sense. Why do you think the kataphract has more armour and less charge? Think weight. Also, the armoured horse archer has a secondary lace that is armour piercing. Check this page on the unit and you'll see their secondary lance is AP.

[kdrakak]

Just read posts 18 and 20. I haven't changed anything. We don't know how most things work. CA isn't obligated to release all info. Period. Those two posts are just my theory on how it might work (i.e. might as well work, or how it practically works, take it as you will).

More charge for an armoured horse archer versus a kataphract makes sense. Why do you think the kataphract has more armour and less charge? Think weight. Also, the armoured horse archer has a secondary lace that is armour piercing. Check this page on the unit and you'll see their secondary lance is AP.

post 18: Either way, the cataphract charges using the lance (just look at the animation + were you really expecting a "charge" with a mace?). Now, in either case, the charge value should be one and the same, because in both cases the lance is used in the charge.
post 20:That is, when you alt-charge, the cata is using it's MACE in the charge, and we can't see that. And because it is "charging with its mace", the charge value is different (about half) than primary charge.

To me the above two are different. Maybe there is something I am missing.
If I think weight, i will reach the conclusion that the heavier unit (given enough space to build up the charge) will make a better charge. That is why modern armour or wall piercing ammo uses heavier heads than conventional ammo. I take it that the noble cataphract is heavier than the armored horse-archer, even just a little bit, so should have a better charge value, in my opinion.

Also my point during this whole thread is that if the armored horse-archer has an armour piercing attack, it should be stated in the unit card (in game).
And finally: Cool page the EB units list!! Where does all the data come from? And I am referring to stuff like lethality and mass? Does anyone know?

[Mediolanicus]

Also my point during this whole thread is that if the armored horse-archer has an armour piercing attack, it should be stated in the unit card (in game).
And finally: Cool page the EB units list!! Where does all the data come from? And I am referring to stuff like lethality and mass? Does anyone know?

export_descr_units (EDU). The RTW enigne does not give all the info on the unit card.

[vartan]

post 18: Either way, the cataphract charges using the lance (just look at the animation + were you really expecting a "charge" with a mace?). Now, in either case, the charge value should be one and the same, because in both cases the lance is used in the charge.
post 20:That is, when you alt-charge, the cata is using it's MACE in the charge, and we can't see that. And because it is "charging with its mace", the charge value is different (about half) than primary charge.

To me the above two are different. Maybe there is something I am missing.
If I think weight, i will reach the conclusion that the heavier unit (given enough space to build up the charge) will make a better charge. That is why modern armour or wall piercing ammo uses heavier heads than conventional ammo. I take it that the noble cataphract is heavier than the armored horse-archer, even just a little bit, so should have a better charge value, in my opinion.

Also my point during this whole thread is that if the armored horse-archer has an armour piercing attack, it should be stated in the unit card (in game).
And finally: Cool page the EB units list!! Where does all the data come from? And I am referring to stuff like lethality and mass? Does anyone know?

See below.

And you can take up the higher charge for the Armoured HA with the EB Team. None of these are prime time issues. The only big problem here is the lack of an explanation for the two varying charge values, for which I offered an explanation that I believe is satisfactory. Forget the animation. The game doesn't work based on animations. It works based on stats. This is RTW, not M2TW. Answer is simple: charge primary, attack secondary once charge dies down.

export_descr_units (EDU). The RTW enigne does not give all the info on the unit card.

Precisely.

[kdrakak]

nope. not prime issues. but they were worth clearing up. in my opinion anyway.....
thanx everyone.