Pike pushing

**Cute Wolf** · 05-13-2010, 20:46

as far as medieval pikemen was concerned, the structure of the pike fighting itself is quite different than in alexander's time. Swiss pikemen for example, are trained to slash enemy throats with pike tip, and landsknecht pikemen in sit down stature are trained to trip enemy foot with the body of the pike. that was possible because the later pikemen didn't carry the cumbersome shield, but it was coming at a cost of their increased vulnerability with missiles.

The front ranks "push", then, will have definitely different motives. The hellenic one will push because the men behind them are pushing them... but the medieval pikemen push because the survivability was a bit more better in the offensive ranks (where you can slash enemy body with pikes, advance under safe cover of friendly pikes and if cornered, roll under enemy pike and gut them with your short sword), compared to the defensive ranks (which only passively resist enemy push).

BTW, if you a roman fan, you should get your name as "legion" and not "pikemen"... did you are such fan of M2TW pikemen then?

**pikeman** · 05-14-2010, 03:13

I'm a fan of the swiss pikemen.

**seienchin** · 05-16-2010, 09:23

The Swiss Pikemen fought in a Mixed formation called Gewalthaufen, which the spanish army perfected with the Terzio. They also had lighter troops with missile and heavy troops with hellebards or two handed swords. Also they didnt use any shields. It was an incredible bloody mess, when two armies with pikemen clashed in the renaissance and early barock. The macedonian phalanx battles are believed to be not as violent by many scientists. Pikemen surrendering after their formation was broken seemed to be normal and a pike wasnt a good weapon to kill someon wearing a linothorax or bronze armour und a shield. The swiss like pikemen had nothing to protect themselves so they fought more aggressive and tried to kill the enemy as quick as possible.

PS: Off course when the swiss came up with the Gewalthaufen no enemy used it so they one some battles surprisingly easy (Just as alexander), but after most countries adopted it, it became just as unflexible as in the Diadochi times. Also there are quite a few theories about the end of the pikeformations I like the theory that cannons, advanced cavallery tacticts and the spreading of the bayonett made their formations impossible to hold and useless.

**vartan** · 05-16-2010, 20:56

Originally Posted by seienchin

PS: Off course when the swiss came up with the Gewalthaufen no enemy used it so they one some battles surprisingly easy (Just as alexander), but after most countries adopted it, it became just as unflexible as in the Diadochi times. Also there are quite a few theories about the end of the pikeformations I like the theory that cannons, advanced cavallery tacticts and the spreading of the bayonett made their formations impossible to hold and useless.

It's almost always like this. Consider the older examples. The Hyksos Hittites and whathaveyou come south and invade and next thing you know, in the blink of an eye (to use a saying), you have Egyptians and Co. using iron weaponry. Assyrians use cav as a unit of battle and not just to carry supplies, and everyone follows suit. The Sumerians fight in phalanx formation presenting a wall of shield and spear, and many follow suit.
The introductory periods almost consistently see bloody victories on the part of the technologically advanced. When enemies mimic tech, things even out and victories don't kill as many people anymore. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. At Cynoscephalae, as far as I can remember, the Romans didn't adhere to "rules of war". They massacred many instead of accepting the sign of surrender (raised pikes) by the Makedones. Guess the Romans had larger goals and sights, more ambitious and couldn't afford a resurrection of the Makedonian professional army...

**Cute Wolf** · 05-17-2010, 10:50

Originally Posted by vartan

The introductory periods almost consistently see bloody victories on the part of the technologically advanced. When enemies mimic tech, things even out and victories don't kill as many people anymore. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. At Cynoscephalae, as far as I can remember, the Romans didn't adhere to "rules of war". They massacred many instead of accepting the sign of surrender (raised pikes) by the Makedones. Guess the Romans had larger goals and sights, more ambitious and couldn't afford a resurrection of the Makedonian professional army...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

BTW, it was worth thinking that the Romans' main infantry was gladius armed legionary... made them looks like an "interlude era" before the pike army rose to prominence again.

**Apázlinemjó** · 05-17-2010, 11:35

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

BTW, it was worth thinking that the Romans' main infantry was gladius armed legionary... made them looks like an "interlude era" before the pike army rose to prominence again.

Let's not forget the Early and "Dark" Middle ages and the armoured heavy cavalry.

**Ludens** · 05-17-2010, 13:03

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

That's why the Romaioi are actually bunch of cowards and barbarians, as they didn't even honour the rule of war.

Maybe because they weren't aware of these rules? For that matter: even modern soldiers have been known to kill captives or surrendering enemies in the heat of combat.

**antisocialmunky** · 05-17-2010, 13:13

Nothing compared to that army of a million men that was massacred by the army of Qin that one time.

**vartan** · 05-18-2010, 00:52

Originally Posted by Ludens

Maybe because they weren't aware of these rules? For that matter: even modern soldiers have been known to kill captives or surrendering enemies in the heat of combat.

I say they were well aware of the rules. It would have been foolish for the Roman Consul not to have pressed the attack on the retreating Makedones.

As for Pike Pushing, does M2TW have a phalanx feature? Since it is an advancement of the RTW engine, I would assume it takes into account code from 1.9. Pushing should be fine as long as the bug-fix for phalanxes from 1.9 is part of M2TW.

**A Very Super Market** · 05-20-2010, 06:28

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

BTW, it was worth thinking that the Romans' main infantry was gladius armed legionary... made them looks like an "interlude era" before the pike army rose to prominence again.

Not really. Knights in Europe were by far the most effective for most of the middle ages (And definitely the early chaos). The Romans were an anomaly in the fact that their armies were infantry dominated. Alexander relied on his companions to break the enemy, where Rome simply slogged it out with manpower.

**Apázlinemjó** · 05-20-2010, 09:36

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Not really. Knights in Europe were by far the most effective for most of the middle ages (And definitely the early chaos). The Romans were an anomaly in the fact that their armies were infantry dominated. Alexander relied on his companions to break the enemy, where Rome simply slogged it out with manpower.

I don't think that it was an anomaly, as after the Renaissance we encounter the same: infantry based armies dominating the battlefields.