Israel of course claims that it was fired on - but of course they will retract this 3 months down the line in a muttering aside by some minister. Just like the white phosphorous attacks in Gaza, etc.
They want to starve out the Palestinians, and they won't tolerate any interference in this plan.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
meh the Palestinians aren't starving they are the fattest people of the planet second only to Qatar. Of course they want to see what's in these ships, and they were warned in advance. Israel is at war with Hamas what did they expect. Sink them next time for all I care boohoohoo.
Israel of course claims that it was fired on - but of course they will retract this 3 months down the line in a muttering aside by some minister. Just like the white phosphorous attacks in Gaza, etc.
They want to starve out the Palestinians, and they won't tolerate any interference in this plan.
hmmm, like the massacre in the Jenin camp too i presume?
starve them out where? where to?
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
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And so the Israeli sympathisers are in, let the debate begin!
I'm sorry but even if you are sympathetic to Israel's aims (what ever that is, because I'm a bit lost) this isn't really justifiable. For a start, I don't even know what they hoped to find on board seeming the ship is an aid ship. The chances of there being weapons, or at least a serious armament are seriously low seeming the ship left from Cyprus, a place where I imagine it isn't particularly easy to smuggle weapons from due to the presence of both UN and British forces. I guess they could of been shipped from Turkey but again, that's unlikely. It probably comes down to ill-discipline and poor intelligence on the Israelis part again.
Israel is showing an increasingly hostile attitude to the Palestinians and seems to be moving further and faster to a form of apartheid. Some of you may try and deny this, but don't bother. Arabs within Israel and those in Palestine can't freely walk in certain areas without receiving a hail of abuse, most Israelis despise them. As an Arab you can also look forward to having your house knocked down to make way for a nice new Israeli house. Any one want to justify that? You can't deny it isn't a form of apartheid. Arabs are discriminated against economically and socially.
Perhaps most worrying though is the fact that Israel have shown a profound ability to show a complete disregard for its western allies. The actions of recent years show they don't consult their allies, not even the USA any more, before making key decisions. We talk about Iran as the rouge state but is Israel not the same? If they refuse to show restraint despite international condemnation for their actions time, and time, and time again, how can any one here defend them?
Last edited by tibilicus; 05-31-2010 at 12:09.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
A ruling of the International Cour of Justice in the Hague from July 9, 2004, stated that their famous wall was a violation of international law.
I think it is safe to assume that this attack to ensure that their blockade is maintained, is also a violation of international law. Of course, the UN will do nothing, since Israels' migthy ally has veto power.
Interesting to note that Israel is also among the states that is not a member of International Criminal Court.
Last edited by Andres; 05-31-2010 at 12:18.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy Ja mata, TosaInu
And so the Israeli sympathisers are in, let the debate begin!
I'm sorry but even if you are sympathetic to Israel's aims (what ever that is, because I'm a bit lost) this isn't really justifiable. For a start, I don't even know what they hoped to find on board seeming the ship is an aid ship. The chances of there being weapons, or at least a serious armament are seriously low seeming the ship left from Cyprus, a place where I imagine it isn't particularly easy to smuggle weapons from due to the presence of both UN and British forces. I guess they could of been shipped from Turkey but again, that's unlikely. It probably comes down to ill-discipline and poor intelligence on the Israelis part again.
Israel is showing an increasingly hostile attitude to the Palestinians and seems to be moving further and faster to a form of apartheid. Some of you may try and deny this, but don't bother. Arabs within Israel and those in Palestine can't freely walk in certain areas without receiving a hail of abuse, most Israelis despise them. As an Arab you can also look forward to having your house knocked down to make way for a nice new Israeli house. Any one want to justify that? You can't deny it isn't a form of apartheid. Arabs are discriminated against economically and socially.
Perhaps most worrying though is the fact that Israel have shown a profound ability to show a complete disregard for its western allies. The actions of recent years show they don't consult their allies, not even the USA any more, before making key decisions. We talk about Iran as the rouge state but is Israel not the same? If they refuse to show restraint despite international condemnation for their actions time, and time, and time again, how can any one here defend them?
what have i learned in this thread so far:
1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?
2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?
3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?
4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?
was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.
do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.
Last edited by Furunculus; 05-31-2010 at 14:58.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?
2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?
3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?
4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?
was israel heavy handed? yes it rather looks that way.
do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? not very much.
You missed the part about boarding a ship in international waters, using force. No, you didnt miss it. Must learn to read entire post first before replying. Shame on me
When that happens near Somalia, people call it piracy, are outraged and some even cheer when the pirates are being shot at or left alone in a rowing boat in the middle of the ocean
You can ignore it as much as you want, but Israel committed an international crime here, no more, no less.
Not so long ago you said "pirate=dead... good". Do you want to see these Israeli soldiers dead? Or did you change your mind about piracy and do you know think it should be allowed. Or do I smell hypocrisy and double standards?
Last edited by Andres; 05-31-2010 at 15:08.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy Ja mata, TosaInu
1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?
2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?
3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?
4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?
was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.
do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.
Don't get me wrong, it would be completely justifiable if the Israelis were checking the ships within their own territorial waters, the point is, they didn't. Seeming your only seeing this from one side, imagine this. Your on a boat late at night and all of a sudden you see helicopters above and armed men rappelling down onto your ship. How would you react in said situation Furunculus?
There's a right way and a wrong way to check ships, this was most certainly wrong. Just to clarify, my position is against the way this deplorable operation was carried out. I have absolutely no problem with Israel checking incoming ships within their own water and doing so in a way which doesn't alarm those on board.
Last edited by tibilicus; 05-31-2010 at 15:17.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
19, by the Israeli press, or 10, by the Israeli army, civilians are claimed to be murdered of whom 9 are Turks.
The civilian aid ships destined to Gaza were attacked by Israeli army with troopers offloaded from helicopters in international waters.
While, at the same time there has been a terrorist attack in Iskenderun, town of the Hatay county, closest city to Syria and Israel, killing 6 Turkish soldiers on duty, presumably committed by Israeli-educated and supplied PKK.
Israel, as a state, is no less sicker than North Korea -definitely violent at all terms considering nothing when it comes to anything related to Palestine.
One can not imagine they represent the sufferers of the Holocaust. Offensive phrase removed by moderator.
Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 05-31-2010 at 15:57.
19, by the Israeli press, or 10, by the Israeli army, civilians are claimed to be murdered of whom 9 are Turks.
The civilian aid ships destined to Gaza were attacked by Israeli army with troopers offloaded from helicopters in international waters.
While, at the same time there has been a terrorist attack in Iskenderun, town of the Hatay county, closest city to Syria and Israel, killing 6 Turkish soldiers on duty, presumably committed by Israeli-educated and supplied PKK.
Israel, as a state, is no less sicker than North Korea -definitely violent at all terms considering nothing when it comes to anything related to Palestine.
One can not imagine they represent the sufferers of the Holocaust. removed
Meh, I'm not a fan of Israel's gung-ho attitude, but this armada got precisely what it was looking for.
The whole point of the exercise was to provoke Israel, to pit 'unarmed' activists against the Israeli army, by trying to break the blockade with an armada of ships.
Well done to the activists, Israeli-Turkish relations are strained beyond repair.
Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 05-31-2010 at 15:58.
Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one -Brenus
Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
Not everything blue and underlined is a link
Meh, I'm not a fan of Israel's gung-ho attitude, but this armada got precisely what it was looking for.
The whole point of the exercise was to provoke Israel, to pit 'unarmed' activists against the Israeli army, by trying to break the blockade with an armada of ships.
Well done to the activists, Israeli-Turkish relations are strained beyond repair.
Sometimes, a provocation is needed to get attention. This blockade must stop.
Originally Posted by Sigurd
They don't have jurisdiction in international waters and this can be treated as pure piracy by international courts.
If only big countries would recognise the ICC, then that court could be made competent to handle this case of piracy... It would help if Israel would also recognise it.
Last edited by Andres; 05-31-2010 at 12:41.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy Ja mata, TosaInu
Oh and that brings up another face of the diamond, Louis.
We've got a Islamist government run dominantly by the single party, AKP for 8 years now since 2002.
These guys are "fans of Palestinians" and it's Turkey where since 2007, 134 workers have died - and been dying on a nearly monthly basis- in Tuzla shipyard and there is nothing fixed ever since. It's Turkey where 19 mining workers have died in a mine 2 weeks ago of whom our prime minister spoke "this is not the first time a mining accident happening".
Considering this "fandom" along with the bitter situation of which caring for your very own citizens is "less favorable", this could have been avoided. But it's all politics right now and things get stuck when we presume "what if the government alignment had nothing to do with Palestinians ?".
It still is another murder show demonstrated by Israel, other than building up that wall, knocking down homes, committing genocide by trying to starve out Palestinians and not letting the patients to be treated and whole world will be watching it with "official disapproval of the incidents" flying around thanks to the Big "Uncle Sam" Israel's sickening power.
Change the sides and let Israel be Iran instead. I'd love to see that nuclear-sized hypocrisy. Same people, let alone gov'ts, would be saying "oh such a shame, this is a direct assault on humanity and should not go unpunished ! Long live Israel and the dead free people of Iran !".
Whether the flotilla was justified is debatable (I personally think it was, due to the fact that it's purpose was an attempt to break the blockade, rather than just deliver stuff), but Israel's actions are certainly not. Was it impossible for the Israelis to snare the propellers of the ships, and then tow them to shore once the protesters had surrendered? Or was it really necessary to for the helpless, vulnerable commandos to blow away anything that moved, as a few sticks and knives were used by the fearsome civilians?
'Israel fell into the trap', yes, that I think is my overriding sentiment. How could they be so unprofessional? I think everybody could've seen this coming. Israel was way too eager to respond to the provocation.
People have died, they've got the martyrs they sought, Israel has been lured into bullying again, it's a pr disaster, Israeli - Turkish relations have been undermined. All the goals of Israel's enemies have been achieved, I'd say.
Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one -Brenus
Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
Not everything blue and underlined is a link
'Israel fell into the trap', yes, that I think is my overriding sentiment. How could they be so unprofessional? I think everybody could've seen this coming. Israel was way too eager to respond to the provocation.
People have died, they've got the martyrs they sought, Israel has been lured into bullying again, it's a pr disaster, Israeli - Turkish relations have been undermined. All the goals of Israel's enemies have been achieved, I'd say.
That's how it looks from here, as well. With the tiny exception that the supplies were diverted to Israel first, as was their insistence.
-edit-
So Israel wins the logistics and tactics games, but loses the strategy and public-relations games.
The people in that convoy got exactly what they wanted. They deliberately provoked Israel into acting stupidly.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Israel of course claims that it was fired on - but of course they will retract this 3 months down the line in a muttering aside by some minister. Just like the white phosphorous attacks in Gaza, etc.
They want to starve out the Palestinians, and they won't tolerate any interference in this plan.
Ummm.... No they not. Did you not see the videos of the Israeli troops being attacked or did you just happen to not mention it here?
Ummm.... No they not. Did you not see the videos of the Israeli troops being attacked or did you just happen to not mention it here?
I think his original commentary was more of a reaction to the IDF's "PR style" in previous incidents.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
JERUSALEM -- A U.S. citizen of Turkish origin was among the nine people killed in a botched Israeli effort to stop a Turkish aid ship from reaching the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, a Turkish official said Thursday.
"It's a Turkish-origin American citizen. We know that," the official said by phone from Turkey, adding that more details were not yet available.
The nine bodies were flown home from Israel to Turkey on Wednesday, along with hundreds of activists, aboard a Turkish plane. Israel was not able to identify the bodies because the dead had no identification on them, Israeli officials said.
The American citizen was identified by the Anatolia news agency as Furkan Dogan, a 19-year-old student. His body had four bullet wounds to the head and one to the chest, the news agency reported.
If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat
"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
4 bullet wounds in the head and 1 in the chest? What were the Israelis doing? Practice shooting?
Or were they like:
"You shot him in the head."
"I did? Better make sure he is dead.." (3 shots could be heard..)
That activist must have been some increadibly powerful zomby when it takes 4 bullets to take him down.
I understand if you shoot someone in the leg if you want to stop him. But in the head??
It's a little ridiculous that the IDF is releasing nothing but edited, commented, prepared snippets of video. Obviously they have full versions. Obviously they're not going to let anyone see them.
Here's a hard, well-parsed essay that expresses a great deal of what I've been thinking:
The assault on the 'Mavi Marmara' was wrong, and a gift to Israel's enemies.
Israel does not need enemies: it has itself. Or more precisely: it has its government. The Netanyahu-Barak government has somehow found a way to lose the moral high ground, the all-important war for symbols and meanings, to Hamas. That is quite an accomplishment. Operation Make the World Hate Us, it might have been called.
I leave it to others to make the operational criticisms of the Israeli action, and will say only that even my amateurish understanding of the tactical challenge posed by the interdiction of the boats suffices to suggest that there were other ways to do this. I also will not pretend to a perfect grasp of what happened on board the Mavi Marmara. I have pondered the videos that both sides have released, and concluded that the Israeli soldiers sliding down that rope had no intention of attacking the people on board and that the people on board had no way of being confident of this. I cannot expect Palestinians and their supporters to believe the best about the Israeli army. (This is what Israeli hardliners call “the restoration of deterrence.”) I do not doubt that some of the activists on the ship welcomed a confrontation with Israel, but the Israelis should not have obliged them. In any event, what took place on that deck looks to me like a tragic misunderstanding. Yet there was no reason to think that anything else would have transpired.
The important point is that the killing of civilians on the Mavi Marmara—I understand that they were “armed” with metal bars and a knife, but still they were civilians, and soldiers are trained to respond unlethally to the recklessness of a mob—cannot be extenuated by reference to “asymmetrical warfare” and Israel’s right to defend itself. This was not warfare, at least of the physical sort. Israel was not under attack. A headline in The Washington Post yesterday reported that “Israel says Free Gaza Movement poses threat to Jewish state.” Such a claim is absurd. It is true that the movement has grown in recent years, and is now troublesome to Israel’s policy in Gaza; and it is also true that the Turkish charity that sponsored the “Freedom Flotilla” has ties to Islamicist groups. But this is hardly what Israel likes to call, in the Iranian context, and there quite plausibly, an “existential threat.” The extension of the definition of a security threat to include hostile activities that have little or no bearing upon security is an ominous development.
It is also the inevitable consequence of Benjamin Netanyahu’s cunning pronouncement last year that Israel is now endangered by “the Iran threat, the missile threat, and the threat I call the Goldstone threat.” The equivalence was morally misleading, and therefore dangerous. Ideological warfare is not military warfare. I have studied the entirety of the Goldstone Report, and whereas I do not doubt (and wrote in this magazine in the days before Goldstone) that Operation Cast Lead caused the unjustifiable death of non-combatants, I also do not doubt that the Goldstone Report, which was nastily indifferent to Israel’s security predicament and to the ethical challenges of Israeli self-defense, was an instrument in a broad campaign of delegitimation against Israel—and yet the threat of delegitimation is not like the threat of destruction. It is different in kind. A commando operation is not an appropriate response to an idea. “This was no Love Boat,” Netanyahu said yesterday. “It was a hate boat.” He is right, but so what? The threat of delegitimation is not a military problem and it does not have a military solution. And the attempt to give it a military solution has now had the awful consequence of making the threat still greater. The assault on the Mavi Marmara was a stupid gift to the delegitimators.
You do not have to be a general to grasp these distinctions. In fact, judging by Israel’s recent history, it might help not to be one. But the militarization of the Israeli government’s understanding of Israel’s situation—this has been the most sterile period for diplomacy in all of Israel’s history—is not all that led to the debacle at sea. Rules of military engagement that allow soldiers to fire on political activists (I leave aside the question of their humanitarianism for a moment) may signify something still deeper and even more troubling. It is hard not to conclude from this Israeli action, and also from other Israeli actions in recent years, that the Israeli leadership simply does not care any longer about what anybody thinks. It does not seem to care about what even the United States—its only real friend, even in the choppy era of Obama—thinks. This is not defiance, it is despair. The Israeli leadership seems to have given up any expectation of fairness and sympathy from the world. It is behaving as if it believes, in the manner of the most perilous Jewish pessimism, that the whole world hates the Jews, and that is all there is to it. This is the very opposite of the measured and empirical attitude, the search for strategic opportunity, the enlistment of imagination in the service of ideals and interests, that is required for statecraft.
The complication—the one that deprives anybody who acknowledges it of membership in any of the gangs of commentary—is that there is a partial basis in the actually existing world for a degree of Israeli pessimism. There are leaders, states, organizations, and peoples whose hostility to the Jewish state is irrational and absolute and in some cases murderous. Things are said critically about Israel that wildly burst the bounds of thoughtful criticism. The language in which Israel is described by some governments and international organizations is lurid and grotesque and foul. Anti-Semitic tropes—the conspiracy theory about the Jews, most conspicuously—are regularly encountered in otherwise respectable places. The analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that absolves the Palestinians of any significant role in it is widespread. I do not see how any of this can be denied, or shunted aside, or explained entirely in terms of Israeli behavior. But it is emphatically not the whole picture, except for those Israelis and Jews whose political interests and ideological inclinations prefer it to be the whole picture. For there are forces in Israel, and in its government, that have a use for Jewish hopelessness.
There is a verse in Numbers that Jewish pessimists like to cite: “the people shall dwell alone, and not be reckoned among the nations.” It is Balaam’s divinely inspired description of the Israelites—Balaam, who came to curse and stayed to bless. But I have always regarded it as a curse, this promise of loneliness. I have heard it intoned lachrymosely and proudly—in our time Jewish pride has a disturbingly parasitic relationship with Jewish lachrymosity—all my life. It chills me to the bone. It is a locution for prophets, not prime ministers. The Jews cannot dwell alone. In fact, their history shows that they never did dwell alone. It is not a tale of insularity and isolation. The apartness of the Jews was never a complete secession from their environment. The engagement of the Jews with the world was a matter not only of practical necessity, but also of theological conviction. And not even the darkest and most dire adversity succeeded in driving them entirely into themselves.
When, in the modern era, the Zionists concluded, quite correctly, that the Jews must extract themselves from anti-Semitic societies and establish a society of their own, a sovereign one, in the land of Israel, it was in part to “normalize” them by making them “reckoned among the nations,” and therefore like other nations. Zionism was a reversal of Balaam’s phony blessing. The state was not supposed to be a bunker, even if it had enemies. But Netanyahu is a creature of the bunker. He talks about peace, but not like a man who hungers for it. He takes no steps toward peace except as the consequence of a crisis—a crisis not with the Palestinians but with the Americans. He liturgically intones his warnings, some of them true, about the external dangers facing Israel, and mistakes brutishness for toughness, and offers nothing. He is a gray, muddling, reactive figure. His preferred strategy for his country is: one quiet week after another unto eternity. His problem is that there are not many quiet weeks.
But about those activists: a great deal of bathetic rubbish has been written about them. Insofar as they were bringing food and medicine to Gaza, they were humanitarians; but insofar as they were striking a blow for the government of Gaza, they were anti-humanitarians. A real “Freedom Flotilla” would have sailed for Gaza to liberate it from its rulers. For Hamas stifles Gaza from within even as Israel stifles it from without. It oppresses the Palestininans who live under its sway and has brought them ruin. When did it become progressive to support a theocracy? Consider the case of Henning Mankell, the Swedish writer of thrillers (and the son-in-law of Ingmar Bergman) who was a passenger on one of the boats in the “Freedom Flotilla.” In his youth he took part in anti-Vietnam and anti-apartheid demonstrations, presumably in the spirit of secular reason. For a while he lived in Norway and participated in the activities of a radical Maoist party: let us call that secular unreason. Now he does the work of Hamas and its mullahs. Last year Mankell attended the Palestine Festival of Literature in east Jerusalem—or would have attended it, if the Israeli authorities had not idiotically closed it down. When he returned to Sweden, he wrote that “there is a straight line between Soweto, Sharpeville, and what recently happened [I presume he was referring to the war] in Gaza.” And: “Is it strange that some [Palestinians] in pure desperation, when they cannot see any other way out, decide to become suicide bombers? Not really. Maybe it is strange that there are not more of them.” And: “The state of Israel in its current form has no future. Moreover, those who advocate a two-state solution have not got it right. … The question is whether it will be possible to talk sense into the Israelis in order for them to willingly accept the end of their own apartheid state.” This man has rights, at sea and on land, but he can hardly be lauded as a champion of peace and reconciliation. You are not for co-existence if you advocate the disappearance of one of the terms. (Consider, analogously, the recent adventures of Noam Chomsky in the region. It was widely noted that the Israelis, again idiotically, turned him away at the Allenby Bridge. It was less widely noted that a few days later a reporter for The New York Times accidentally discovered him in Lebanon at the home of Nabil Qaouk, the deputy head of Hezbollah, which is not what Voltaire had in mind.)
And yet the screw must be turned again: the anti-Israeli virulence of Henning Mankell and his maritime comrades does not make Israel’s assault on the Mavi Marmara more just or more wise. Now the Israeli government may find it impossible not to modify or even to lift the blockade of Gaza—an outcome that no decent person can decry, as long as Hamas does not exploit the respite to acquire weapons or what it needs to make them, and the past is not encouraging in this regard. Netanyahu will do what he can to get past the mess, hoping that the approach of the midterm elections in the United States will rescue him from the pressure, and the deadening hand of the status quo will be back. And Israel will be known to more and more people—in a wounding misrepresentation—mainly for cruelty.
Israel kills to Maintain Blockade
Re: Israel kills to Maintain Blockade
Originally Posted by Idaho
plane at least someone gets it.
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