EB Unit Stats Tweaking - phalangites, hoplites, chariots, gaestae, etc - suggestions?

[Intranetusa]

Hi there, I made this topic to clump all my ideas together, since my other ideas were incoherently spread across multiple posts.

I need suggestions for tweaking the unit stats - suggestions for mostly game balance, but I don't want to stray too far from historical accuracy.

Thanks!


Updated Jan 22nd, 2012. July 1st, 2010
-updated elephants, babylonian spearmen

Changes so far:

All Phalangites with sarissa 'phalanx' attribute
+1 defense skill
-2 shield to 3
***So far so good, they are more vulnerable to missiles. Should I reduce this to 3? I think a value of 2 was the original RTW vanilla phalangite shield value

All Chariots +1 HP to 3HP (horses), riders stay at 2 & 1 hp for Celtic bodyguard and Scythe chariots respectively
Celtic Chariot -1 def skill, -1 armor
Scythe chariot -4 armor, +2 morale
***so far it seems ok

Rationale:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Rationale for chariots - with 2 HP for the horses, they still kinda sucked for their main purpose - running into infantry and disorganizing their lines. Usually, more than half the chariots would die before they could successfully disorganize an infantry unit. Now with 3 HP, they're much more survivable. I did a test with a chariot + infantry army attacking a fort. I defended the fort's main-gate with heavy infantry, and the chariot was actually able to push my infantry back and allow their own infantry to stream into the fort (I lost the battle). Without chariots, those infantry would've been slaughtered as they got cornered and squished together at the gate by my heavy infantry. Also, with 2HP chariots, they normally would've died and routed before accomplishing their objectives.

All Nake Fanatics/Gaesatae -1 HP to 1HP
+3 defense to 18
+1 attack to 14
+1 armor to 6
***This Gaesatate tweak change has worked great, and has balanced them out.

Rationale:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I mainly wanted them to be more vulnerable to archers and javelins, as well as vulnerable to flanking/encircling due to the defense skill value not applying to a unit's rear. They still pwn in up close melee, but are much more vulnerable to missiles. Did some tests and in one-on-one battles, they beat imperial cohorts and first cohorts nearly every time. And this is after the 2 volleys of Roman armor piercing pilums killing about 10 Gaestates on average. Against elite units such as the Praetorians, the Gaesataes have a 50-50 chance of victory, not bad considering it's 60 vs 80

Classical Hoplites with only 1 weapon
+Short Pike attribute, thanks to TW Fanatic's idea
+1 shield to 5
-.1 spear lethality to .12
-2 armor
added .25 unit cohesion value at the end of "soldier" trait
.8 is now the formation distance for all hoplites formerly with .76
***Based off of TW Fanatic's minimod that made classical hoplites awesome - short pike attribute and a shield value of 6.

Rationale:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Classical hoplites can keep a cohesive, awesome looking formation instead of breaking into individual units like regular spearmen would. I'm experimenting with shield values of 5 to make it slightly weaker and make it proportional to other shield values after lowering phalangite values. Still virtually unstoppable from the front. When fighting in a city street, three to four units of elite classical hoplites can defeat almost a full 20 unit stack of average swordsmen/spearmen units.
Also, see this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...hariot-minimod

Non short-pike classical hoplites (2 weapons)
added .25 or .3 unit cohesion value at the end of "soldier" trait and tightened the formations
of units such as the Celtic Arjos, Agema, etc to around .8

All Elephants +1 HP
3 HP elephants to 4HP
4 HP elephants to 5HP
-5 armor for African forest elephant 23 to 18
-5 armor for towered African forest elephant 23 to 18
-5 armor for African bush elephant 25 to 20
-5 armor for African forest elephant 23 to 18
-5 armor for armored Indian elephant from 30 to 25
-5 armor for Indian elephant from 23 to 18

In single player, I reduced the cost and upkeep of elephants. Also added another HP to 5HP for small African forest elephants
and 6HP for towered forest elephants, African Bush elephants, and Indian Elephants w, w/o armor.

Rationale:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Did this after increasing the chariots to 3. I think these increased elephant HP are ok, since RTW vanilla has them at 12 and 15 HP respectively. I mainly added the extra HP for survivability and to justify their enormous cost. Now half your "smaller" elephant types won't die and rout from only 1-2 volleys of javelins. It's only a 25-33% HP increase, so they're tougher, but still very kill-able. Also, it justifies the chariot HP increase which is now at 3. It would be weird, at least for me, if a smaller elephant and a chariot both had 3 HP. I wanted the smaller & larger elephant to be tougher so I added +1 HP for both...

Sacred Band Phalanx
Removed their 2ndary weapon, which was entirely useless due to its lower attack value and same lethality as the spear
After removing their 2ndary weapon, I was able to add the short pike attribute. Now they fight as an awesome cohesive classical phalanx unit!
I've decided to also increase the shield value to 5 to match the other classical hoplites.

Rationale:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This unit's 2ndary weapon was useless, and Carthage already has a ton of elite units with 2 weapons. Carthage has units like the heavy iberian infantry, Iberian assault infantry, hand-picked heavy libyan-phonecian infantry, heavy libyan infantry, elite african infantry, etc - I wanted an elite classical hoplite unit instead of just another regular two-weaponed unit

Shipri Tukul (Babylonian Heavy Spearmen)
This awesome mercenary unit is underpowered.
Added +1 to armor, and +1 to morale.

Thrakioi Peltastai & Thrakioi Peltastai mercs
Reduced lethality from .26 to .165, increased attack from 7 to 8. Now it matches most other units with a one handed AP-weapon with .165 lethality.

Cordinau Orca (Scordisci Elite Infantry)
Increased long sword lethality from .12 to .225. Decreased attack from 15 to 14.

Persian Hoplites (eastern infantry kardaka)
Similar to the Sacred Band, I got rid of the 2ndary sword weapon which wasn't any more useful than its spear. Then +1 shield, -2 armor, -.02 lethality to .12, and added the short pike attribute.

Roman Praetorian Cohorts
Increased the custom-battle cost in both single and multi edus to 3533. (originally it was around 2000ish for custom)

Roman Manipular Infantry - increased costs to values before EB v1.2
I'm changing them back closer to their original values because they seem way outta balance in comparison to other units. Even if it is to portray Rome's vast manpower ability to spam infantry, I think that can
be represented via campaign script or giving money to the AI.[/SPOIL]

New Values:
Early Hastati = 1258 cost, 314 upkeep
Polybian Hastati = 1333 cost, 333 upkeep

Early Principes = 1454 cost, 364 upkeep
Polybian Principes = 1647 cost, 412 upkeep

Early Triari = 2304 cost, 576 upkeep
Polybian Triari = 2171 cost, 543 upkeep




Want to change:


Cavalry in melee.
Another idea - cavalry fares poorly in melee mostly because of their size right? Because the horse + rider unit is so big, 1 cavalry unit has to fight like 3-4 infantry units at once when engaged in melee. Do you thinking doubling their HP, and lowering their defense & armor would make them more effective at melee while keeping them not overpowered like in RTW vanilla?

Actually, what would happen if I gave cavalry unit's a mount value of 1 along with the unit HP of 1, instead of the unit HP being 2? Would that just mean they die twice as fast...or twice as slow?

For some reason, in the multiplayer edu, the Greeks don't have access to the Hellenic Heavy Skirmisher (Peltasti), I added Greek Cities as an owner in the edu. Also tightened Syracusian hoplite formation to match the formations of regular Greek hoplites.

[Ibrahim]

I still say go with the 2-3 shield for phalangists, and leave defense skill alone.

all the rest, I'm really interested in seeing the rationale (gaesatae aside-that one is pretty good rationale); perhaps they can be of value?

[Intranetusa]

I still say go with the 2-3 shield for phalangists, and leave defense skill alone.

all the rest, I'm really interested in seeing the rationale (gaesatae aside-that one is pretty good rationale); perhaps they can be of value?

Chariots
Rationale for chariots - with 2 HP, they still kinda sucked for their main purpose - running into infantry and disorganizing their lines. Usually, more than half the chariots would die before they could sucessfully disorganize an infantry unit. Now with 3 HP, they're much more survivable. I did a test with a chariot + infantry army attacking a fort. I defended the fort's maingate with heavy infantry, and the chariot was actually able to push my infantry back and allow their own infantry to stream into the fort (I lost the battle). Without chariots, those infantry would've been slaughtered as they got cornered and squished together at the gate by my heavy infantry. Also, with 2HP chariots, they normally would've died and routed before accomplishing their objectives.

Now my only concern is I made them too overpowered against cavalry... >_>

Hoplites
As for hoplites - thanks to TWFanatic's short_pike idea, classical hoplites can keep a cohesive, awesome looking formation instead of breaking into individual units like regular spearmen would.

See this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...hariot-minimod

Sacred Band
This unit's 2ndary weapon was useless, and Carthage already has a ton of elite units with 2 weapons. Carthage has units like the heavy iberian infantry, Iberian assault infantry, hand-picked heavy libyan-phonecian infantry, heavy libyan infantry, elite african infantry, etc - I wanted an elite classical hoplite unit instead of just another regular two-weaponed unit

Elephants
I mainly added the extra HP for survivability and to justify their enormous cost. Now half your "smaller" elephant types won't die and rout from only 1-2 volleys of javelins. It's only a 25-33% HP increase, so they're tougher, but still very kill-able. Also, it justifies the chariot HP increase which is now at 3. It would be weird, at least for me, if a smaller elephant and a chariot both had 3 HP. I wanted the smaller & larger elephant to be tougher so I added +1 HP for both...

[gamegeek2]

This unit's 2ndary weapon was useless, and Carthage already has a ton of elite units with 2 weapons. Carthage has units like the heavy iberian infantry, Iberian assault infantry, hand-picked heavy libyan-phonecian infantry, heavy libyan infantry, elite african infantry, etc - I wanted an elite classical hoplite unit instead of just another regular two-weaponed unit

Give it an overhand spear, then, please! I think it would look much better.

Also, the secondary weapon wasn't entirely useless; it may have been about as good against other infantry. But I agree, it was heavily underpowered.

You can just use guard mode to let hoplites keep a cohesive formation; or shield wall in BI.exe

[gamegeek2]

My big suggestion, however, would be to raise most infantry shield values:

1 for strap-to-arm shields, tiny slinger shields, etc. and a +1 defense bonus
3 for caetrae, medium wicker shields, and a +1 defense bonus if the unit is trained
4 for medium round shields, wicker thureos-shaped shields
5 for thureoi and hexagonal shields, with a -1 defense penalty
6 for scuta and hopla/large aspides, with a -1 defense penalty, or a -2 penalty if the unit isn't trained

[antisocialmunky]

-Chariots were pretty fragile things and usually relied on infantry freaking out and trying to get out of the way so I don't think its warranted to make them the poor-man's elephants. If you ever have driven them through attacking legionaires they are freaking deadly already.

-Hoplites with short-pike are... okay. I rather not have to deal with short pike at all and rather have a dense attacking formation. The main issue is formation pushing because they don't have pushing ability in guard mode. I think you can do it by adjusting density but that requires a whole rebalance of the hoplite since there are weird side effects for it.

-Elephants are hit or miss units. You need to know how to use them and how not to use them since unlike regular cavalry, if you hit with a unit of cavalry correctly, you'll do lots of casualties and maybe chain rout for a victory. If you hit with elephants right: you will just win the game. Really its an issue of knowing how to use the unit and whether to want to go for the higher risk/high pay off.

Actually probably the msot useful thing to do for phants is to 1/2 size 1/2 cost them so they are only around 5000 which is only 1000 more than a normal Kataphract.

[Intranetusa]

-Hoplites with short-pike are... okay. I rather not have to deal with short pike at all and rather have a dense attacking formation. The main issue is formation pushing because they don't have pushing ability in guard mode. I think you can do it by adjusting density but that requires a whole rebalance of the hoplite since there are weird side effects for it.

Short pike actually makes them into a very dense attacking formation. Units without this trait separate and scatter when attacking, whereas short pike they keep in a cohesive formation. (especially so when in guard mode). If you use just regular guard mode without short pike, they seem to be weaker than they normally would since not all of their front units engage in battle...I only use guard mode if I'm defending a street and I can keep my unit and the enemy absolutely flat and parallel.

-Chariots were pretty fragile things and usually relied on infantry freaking out and trying to get out of the way so I don't think its warranted to make them the poor-man's elephants. If you ever have driven them through attacking legionaires they are freaking deadly already....
-Elephants are hit or miss units. You need to know how to use them and how not to use them since unlike regular cavalry, if you hit with a unit of cavalry correctly, you'll do lots of casualties and maybe chain rout for a victory. If you hit with elephants right: you will just win the game. Really its an issue of knowing how to use the unit and whether to want to go for the higher risk/high pay off.

Actually probably the msot useful thing to do for phants is to 1/2 size 1/2 cost them so they are only around 5000 which is only 1000 more than a normal Kataphract.

Aye, but my main focus is single player. Human players would know not to charge chariots right into densely packed infantry, or parade elephants around letting them get slaughtered by javelins. Nonetheless, I still feel chariots with only 2HP are still useless given their high price - so I don't know if they would use them in the first place...you can have better morale-killing units like the Gaesataes. And scythe chariots with their ridiculous 6 morale will rout the second the 1st unit dies....

AI players are...not so intelligent.

As for eles, I suppose that would work too, but I prefer larger amounts of eles for more epic battles... :)

Give it an overhand spear, then, please! I think it would look much better...You can just use guard mode to let hoplites keep a cohesive formation; or shield wall in BI.exe

Aye. Currently I have the underhand-spear and short_pike. It looks...ok. Looks cooler when in idle, but looks less cool than over-hand spears when in battle ready mode. What stats to I need to change to give it an overhand spear?

[Intranetusa]

For Shipri Tukul (Babylonian Heavy Spearmen)
I'm thinking of adding +1 to armor, and +1 or +2 to morale...? I think they should be at least on or almost on the same level in terms of morale as the polybian hastati to justify their cost...

The Polybian Principes have 12 armor while post-Marian cohorts have 10 armor?
Are the principes armor better than the post-Marian armor? (I guess due to the leg greeves?)
post-Marians have 25% more troops compared to the principes, but the cost of their recuritment/upkeep is more than 25% of the principes?

So principes are generally a better bang-for-buck unit than post-Marian cohorts?

[Rahwana]

Aye. Currently I have the underhand-spear and short_pike. It looks...ok. Looks cooler when in idle, but looks less cool than over-hand spears when in battle ready mode. What stats to I need to change to give it an overhand spear?

that will involve some 3dsmax editing though, better ask some modellers to do that for you

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You could always ask the newbie one who doing all the mad things with models, right now as far as I can see, Cute Wolf (my university mate) allready doing some custom fixed models, such as repairing duguntiz gautizka's and garamantin's backward spear, as well as some crazy additions such as giving klerouchikoi Phalangitai javelins instead of sarrisae, and made Gaesatae's penis much more bigger, up to the knee

[Intranetusa]

bleh! Nevermind then... underhanded hoplites for the Sacred Band looks fine, even though it's not entirely accurate...


And what's up with elephants?
Why do Indian elephants have less defense skill and less morale than African bush elephants? Were they less trained, smaller, etc?

Also armored elephants have the same armor value of 14 as African bush and Indian elephants...? (this is from the unit cards, which might be outdated)

[Ibrahim]

Chariots
Rationale for chariots - with 2 HP, they still kinda sucked for their main purpose - running into infantry and disorganizing their lines. Usually, more than half the chariots would die before they could sucessfully disorganize an infantry unit. Now with 3 HP, they're much more survivable. I did a test with a chariot + infantry army attacking a fort. I defended the fort's maingate with heavy infantry, and the chariot was actually able to push my infantry back and allow their own infantry to stream into the fort (I lost the battle). Without chariots, those infantry would've been slaughtered as they got cornered and squished together at the gate by my heavy infantry. Also, with 2HP chariots, they normally would've died and routed before accomplishing their objectives.

Now my only concern is I made them too overpowered against cavalry... >_>

Hoplites
As for hoplites - thanks to TWFanatic's short_pike idea, classical hoplites can keep a cohesive, awesome looking formation instead of breaking into individual units like regular spearmen would.

See this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...hariot-minimod

Sacred Band
This unit's 2ndary weapon was useless, and Carthage already has a ton of elite units with 2 weapons. Carthage has units like the heavy iberian infantry, Iberian assault infantry, hand-picked heavy libyan-phonecian infantry, heavy libyan infantry, elite african infantry, etc - I wanted an elite classical hoplite unit instead of just another regular two-weaponed unit

Elephants
I mainly added the extra HP for survivability and to justify their enormous cost. Now half your "smaller" elephant types won't die and rout from only 1-2 volleys of javelins. It's only a 25-33% HP increase, so they're tougher, but still very kill-able. Also, it justifies the chariot HP increase which is now at 3. It would be weird, at least for me, if a smaller elephant and a chariot both had 3 HP. I wanted the smaller & larger elephant to be tougher so I added +1 HP for both...

1-why not add 2 hp for the mount, and give the rider 1 HP? as the horses are driven, not ridden, the game can treat it as a separate entity. unless the 2 HP already refer to the horse and man put together?
2-makes sense to me. and I like the restating.
3-Elephants: I don't know what to say about this-mostly because I don't know too much about elephants.

4-now for the hoppers: I'm not in favor of the short_pike attribute whatsoever; while it does solve the problem or lacking cohesion, I think it kinda ***** up stats to an extant. I think we can change the radius of the combat unit instead, from 0.4 (the default), to 0.1-0.25, while maintaining the formation spacings. the result should be a cohesive unit, without playing with the stats (unless, out of safety, you may reduce the attack -1 or -2).

that's the theory anyways; it worked in N2TW. now to actually apply it to EB.

[Intranetusa]

1-why not add 2 hp for the mount, and give the rider 1 HP? as the horses are driven, not ridden, the game can treat it as a separate entity. unless the 2 HP already refer to the horse and man put together?
2-makes sense to me. and I like the restating.
3-Elephants: I don't know what to say about this-mostly because I don't know too much about elephants.

How would 1 hp man, 2hp mount work, would it mean more difficulty for the game engine? (ie. more lag)
Also, if either the man dies or the horse dies, the entire unit dies right?

I'm thinking of changing around morale and armor values for elephants. It's kinda weird that in the unit cards, armored elephants and non-armored elephants have the same exact armor value.

4-now for the hoppers: I'm not in favor of the short_pike attribute whatsoever; while it does solve the problem or lacking cohesion, I think it kinda ***** up stats to an extant. I think we can change the radius of the combat unit instead, from 0.4 (the default), to 0.1-0.25, while maintaining the formation spacings. the result should be a cohesive unit, without playing with the stats (unless, out of safety, you may reduce the attack -1 or -2).
that's the theory anyways; it worked in N2TW. now to actually apply it to EB.

Would changing the radius of the combat unit stop them from dispersing/spreading out as soon as they engage an enemy?

[vartan]

It's kinda weird that in the unit cards, armored elephants and non-armored elephants have the same exact armor value.

It's not weird. The author made a typographical error.

EDIT: CORRECTION: It's not so much a typo as it is a lack of information. Not all info is displayed on the Heimstatt cards let alone the in-game card. There is secondary armour that is the metal that the armoured indian ele has. You can find it in the EDU...

[Intranetusa]

It's not weird. The author made a typographical error.

[fallen851]

Changes so far:

Sacred Band Phalanx
Removed their 2ndary weapon, which was entirely useless due to its lower attack value and same lethality as the spear
After removing their 2ndary weapon, I was able to add the short pike attribute. Now they fight as an awesome cohesive classical phalanx unit!
kept the shield value the same at 4, since it seems to be smaller than most hoplite shields from the picture...

Rationale:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This unit's 2ndary weapon was useless, and Carthage already has a ton of elite units with 2 weapons. Carthage has units like the heavy iberian infantry, Iberian assault infantry, hand-picked heavy libyan-phonecian infantry, heavy libyan infantry, elite african infantry, etc - I wanted an elite classical hoplite unit instead of just another regular two-weaponed unit

This is a good idea. What other units would traditionally use their spear that the AI automatically has them use their sword that we could change?

There is one Gallic unit that uses their spear too much, when they should use their sword. Some Averni elite Gallic swordsmen or something.

Anyway, I added 18% to all lethality values, reduced the attack of most spears, increased the damage and cost of archers and slingers, removed the AP attribute from slingers, limited the ammo of many, increased the range of javelins and pila (so they have a chance to get them off before the enemy unit is already in a melee with them), reduce all infantry to 1 HP and rebalanced those that had 2 hp, and reduced morale. I also added frighten infantry to all cavalry units (save horse archers, whom infantry would love to get their hands on rather than fearing the power of their horses in a full blow charge), reduced the armor of cavalry, and removed the ridiculous launching attribute that elephants and chariots have. Finally, I greatly reduced the cost of ships and siege weapons.

It is fun.

[Ludens]

Moved to the submod forum.

[bobbin]

4. Polybian Principes have 12 armor while post-Marian cohorts have 10 armor?

They have a greave on each leg.

[Ludens]

They have a greave on each leg.

If I am not mistaken, one or two greaves should not make a difference in EB's stat system. The additional protection is very useful for the leading leg, but not so much for the trailing one.

[Intranetusa]

They have a greave on each leg.

I see. But why are principes cheaper in terms of man-per-man than the post-Marians?

Is it because historically principes brought their own equipment while post-Marian equipment were provided by the state?

[vartan]

I see. But why are principes cheaper in terms of man-per-man than the post-Marians?

Is it because historically principes brought their own equipment while post-Marian equipment were provided by the state?

Look at the number of men per cohort. That, combined with what you mentioned, more than makes up for the difference.

[Intranetusa]

I know that post-Marians are better than Principes. My question is why are they more expensive? Is it because they provided their own equipment?

Principes: 40 base units - cost 1185, upkeep 296 = 29.6 per man
Post-Marian Cohorts: 50 base units - cost 1790, upkeep 448 = 35.8 per man

So post-Marians still cost more per man than principes.

[bobbin]

I see. But why are principes cheaper in terms of man-per-man than the post-Marians?

Is it because historically principes brought their own equipment while post-Marian equipment were provided by the state?

Probably, i don't know for sure as I didn't do the statting for EB, you'd need to ask someone like Watchman for the reason.

[Ibrahim]

sorry for the late reply:

How would 1 hp man, 2hp mount work, would it mean more difficulty for the game engine? (ie. more lag)
Also, if either the man dies or the horse dies, the entire unit dies right?

I'm not quite sure how it works precisely; I was proposing this as a potentially more satisfactory solution; I'll try it out myself today. I do know about the whole "seperate HP" thing, but have yet to try it.

I'm thinking of changing around morale and armor values for elephants. It's kinda weird that in the unit cards, armored elephants and non-armored elephants have the same exact armor value.

I'd have to concur on that then. makes little sense to all have one armor value.

Would changing the radius of the combat unit stop them from dispersing/spreading out as soon as they engage an enemy?

precisely. it also allows for tighter formations as well-if you so choose.

I know that post-Marians are better than Principes. My question is why are they more expensive? Is it because they provided their own equipment?

yep-Marians not only get paid, but are equipped, maintained, and even pensioned by the state; earlier units? not so much.

EDIT: turns out my suggestion was exactly what was in the EB sp and mp stats (regarding chariots)..bummer. best try sth else.

[vartan]

The tests y'all perform use modified stats, but because you are still using the same game as everyone else, Europa Barbarorum, your tests would still be great reads for those wishing to study the game more in-depth. Consider contributing to the research project, Europa Barbarorum: A Look Into the Past.

[Intranetusa]

EDIT: turns out my suggestion was exactly what was in the EB sp and mp stats (regarding chariots)..bummer. best try sth else.

So horses get 2HP and the rider gets 1HP? What if there are two riders? Does that mean both rider have 1/2 HP or they both count as 1 person?

And does 2HP horse + 1 HP rider make it easier or harder to kill the chariot? I'm thinking it creates more targets to kill, but if all the attacks happen to land on the rider,
then that would mean the unit dies 2x as fast.

1HP for a rider and 1HP for the horse would work well for regular cavalry units to beef them up I believe... ?

[Ludens]

It's possible to kill the missile-bearers on a chariot or elephant without killing the unit, though this happens rarely and seems to be a matter of chance. I suppose that is what the rider HP refers to: I've never seen a mahout or chariot-driver die other than through killing it's mount.

If the mahout has a single HP as well, then we would, once in a blue moon, see an elephant die under the first salvo of missile fire. I have never noticed that happening, so I suppose the mahout is part of the elephant model.

[Cute Wolf]

It's possible to kill the missile-bearers on a chariot or elephant without killing the unit, though this happens rarely and seems to be a matter of chance. I suppose that is what the rider HP refers to: I've never seen a mahout or chariot-driver die other than through killing it's mount.

If the mahout has a single HP as well, then we would, once in a blue moon, see an elephant die under the first salvo of missile fire. I have never noticed that happening, so I suppose the mahout is part of the elephant model.

it never happened with the mahout that was on top on elephants head, or the chariot riders... but you can notice how chidainh javelinmen die, and their chariot and drivers not, when under heavy pilum (like, oh, my passangers are die, but whatever, I can get some more in the town when we are retrained anyway...)

if you want to notice that, raise the passangers per chariots (to 3 instead of 2) so you can notice after charging a line full of Romans, you'll found some chariots have only 1 passangers.

on the contrary, I've never seen elephant archers die in EB without their elephants die, too high placed maybe?

[hektor27]

Can I have your files please!!!!!

[Rahwana]

Can I have your files please!!!!!

LOL this was just conceptual and I bet everyone here allready had their modded version of EB SP EDU

[SlickNicaG69]

I will add ideas as they come to me, but here is one that seems obvious:

Legionary Description from EB Website:

The gladius hispaniensis, adapted during the late 3rd century BC conflicts, is a great weapon for fighting in close formations. Its strong, unbending blade has a sharp point to penetrate heavy armour and can deal an effective blow with both edges. So it can be used for stabbing or slashing as well. The pilum, the heavy Roman javelin, is designed to bend after impact so that it is worthless for the enemy and is difficult to remove from shields. Its weight also gives the weapon great penetration capability.

The points I emboldened only leads me to rationalize that:

*Legionary attack should be AP, it says it in the description.
*Legionary lethality should be at least .225 or higher, since even the Southern Gallic Swordsman has a lethality of .225, despite possessing a common 'longsword.' It would be wrong to factor in reputation in for this.
*Since the 'rendering the shields useless' is impossible, somehow adjust the pila so that it doesn't kill 0 units up front, regardless of what unit type it is... this one is especially needed as anyone can tell you how unrealistic it is for pila to be thrown at the flanks of a phalanx unit, and still kill only 1 soldier (I remember throwing one whole volley at the backs of some Scythian cataphracts and killed a total of 1 unit... yes 1!!!), there is something wrong with that.
*The pila has an attack value of 4!, even being armor piercing, what difference would it make vs some light infantry? It would actually be weaker than a rudimentary javelin from a Spanish ambusher... again... a nice subject for an experiment...
*Why isn't their attack value higher, being that they can attack by slashing and thrusting... this can be applied to anytime of soldier with such description (such as Boii swordsmen). This one should be more based of reputation, as it would be wrong to give a Gaestate a less powerful attack then a legionary.

In regards to the Neitos, why is their defense skill, armor, and morale so high? Their description says the following (from site):

Well armored in quality chain, with sturdy shields, and good longswords, the Neitos (Nee-yet-os; "Soldiers") are professional soldiers, and excellently skilled and disciplined when compared to the bulk of light Gallic soldiers ... they were rarely in large enough number to act as anything but a tiny elite, though they, in truth, were little more than average soldiers of regular warriors in superior armor and with superior equipment.

Why would their armor be superior to the Romans'? Why would their defense skill be higher? Why would, above all things, their morale be so close to the Romans if they were merely the Boutoras in heavy armor... I'd concede a morale of 10, assuming their equipment enchance their 'confidence.'

*I take this opportunity to identify what I believe to be the clearest reference for applying stat values... Unit Descriptions.
*In said descriptions, have a standard for each, kind of like done by Gamegeek above... chainmail = __. Non-metal curriass = __... etc. etc.
*Thus, no hoplite, except maybe levies, and certainly no 'pike', should have a 'light spear'.

*Oh and for the cavalry problem, why not just give light skirmisher units and to a certain extent heavier ones (I would exclude, for example, the Thracian Peltast as in description it says it is very effective vs cavalry) negative mount effects vs. cavalry?

I agree with those who have said don't mess with the chariots/elephants as, historically, they were much more hindrances than beneficiaries... you seem to possess a desire to see them used much more effectively than they actually were... just an objective opinion.