Combat in the Med II engine

[Cute Wolf]

so should we start to reduce lance lethality in EB 1?
uh yeah... and what about EB II's hetairoi... Megas Alexandros will cry for that

[Ichon]

Well I love EB1 too, but you just said frontal charges didnt happen too often, and others in this thread (Including team members) said, that a real charge was unlikely to happen.
In EB every second cavalry is like Medieval knights. Armoured and with the power to frontal charge most of the units, tossing them in the air like flies...

Hmm... its been awhile since I played EB1 but I remember less effective charges. Maybe just the factions I played? If there are many charging like medieval knights I'd think that was wrong but I also don't know how moddable RTW was, I only played it a bit before spending most time on MTW2. I hope EB2 doesn't do that.

[Ichon]

My point was that a stumbling horse in the front of the formation could cause others behind to crash into it leading to a pile up effect, which would greatly reduce the effectiveness of the charge. The danger was to the cavalry not the infantry.

I'm not sure how big a danger it was. Either ranked in a line or wedge horses aren't packed like sardines. If a horse stumbles over a knocked down infantry (already entered formation there btw) the horse behind it should be able to turn 3-4 feet in a stride and avoid. Only a horse going completely down and flailing around would stop the file of ranks directly behind. I'd guess that happened occasionally but to completely stop the charge we'd be talking about 1/3 or more of the entire first rank of horses falling to the ground. That seems unlikely... also less of a problem in wedge where it penetrates some distance inside an infantry formations and forces the infantry to turn sideways to fight where a charge done in a line the infantry formation retains integrity and faces forward despite however many ranks were knocked down/back in the front. So if a horse did fall then the wedge would simply get a bit wider whereas in a line the line could grow only so much lengthwise with fewer ranks. If there is some terrain obstacle like a covered ditch or stakes etc that would be a big detriment to cavalry and perhaps Romans did do such things regularly when facing cavalry, not many other type of infantry seem to have done such as part of normal operations until early renaissance.

A frontal charge did create more dangers for the cavalry and hence usually casualties which is why I don't think very many cavalry would do a frontal charge often. That doesn't mean automatically that such charges were fatal to all the horses involved or never happened. The one problem both MTW2 and the RTW AI share is suicidal intent with its cavalry. Even in some of the better BAI's where cavalry seek to flank or circle to the rear the AI still advances with cavalry first before the body of its infantry arrives and that lets the cavalry be defeated first and then it is much easier to beat just the infantry. Nerfing the cavalry overmuch is likely to give the AI a big disadvantage because in most battles aside from siege assaults the enemy cavalry causes the majority of player's losses. If cavalry are completely ineffective in charge the AI needs to be improved so it doesn't throw them in first to be slaughtered and then leave its infantry without support.

[seienchin]

so should we start to reduce lance lethality in EB 1?
uh yeah... and what about EB II's hetairoi... Megas Alexandros will cry for that

After all the comments I read from the EB Team I wouldnt excpect hetairoi to kick that much ass anymore. And to further irritate you one crew member said, that EBs heavy cataphract units were first reported in the 1century AD. ;)
Personally I would be happy if medieval style lancing cavallery would be taken out all together.
I mean the main reason the human player in EB wins most battles easily is because of the cavallery.
If you play celts or lusotann you wonder why your armies take that much more casualties than if you were playing a steppe faction.

[vartan]

After all the comments I read from the EB Team I wouldnt excpect hetairoi to kick that much ass anymore. And to further irritate you one crew member said, that EBs heavy cataphract units were first reported in the 1century AD. ;)

Yeah, and the Trojan War wasn't reported till centuries later. They didn't have real-time live newspress and Internet back then, and even before (as well as during) text there have been (and still are) oral myths and whathaveyou. Stuff sometimes don't get reported till far beyond the event's date. Just look at the stuff that gets de-classified here in the States. Take at least 30 years plus to get it de-class'd.

[Arjos]

I went back to M2TW lately and the guard mode is awful, no formation and the troops get tired quite fast...
Maybe something can be done with the shield wall ability, but even that is disappointing...

[Ichon]

Pikes hold formation halfway decently but most other infantry don't even in guard mode, stamina can be modded a bit which if the fights are going to be longer with overall relatively higher defense needs to be done.

[WinsingtonIII]

I went back to M2TW lately and the guard mode is awful, no formation and the troops get tired quite fast...
Maybe something can be done with the shield wall ability, but even that is disappointing...

The losing formation problem is an issue, but arguably, troops should get tired, even in guard mode. That was part of the problem with RTW guard mode, where the unit would remain fresh indefinitely if fighting but not told to attack.

[antisocialmunky]

Guard units don't chase after the enemy unless told to. That is enough.