Some queries regarding EB's units...

[Intranetusa]

check out my post where I tweaked some of the unit values:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tc-suggestions

For sarissa phalangites, I reduced the shield value by two (from 5 to 3) and added 1 defense point value.

[Rolling Thunder]

check out my post where I tweaked some of the unit values:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tc-suggestions

For sarissa phalangites, I reduced the shield value by two (from 5 to 3) and added 1 defense point value.

Why add the defence point value? I mean, they're meant to be vulnerable to attack. They're pikemen.


Armour Values Problems:

While playing EB, I've found what appear to my untrained eyes to be serious discrepancies with the armour values of most 'heavy' units on the battlefield.

Firstly, let us examine the Hoplati. These men wear a linenthorax, bronze greaves and a Corinthian helm. Solid, reasonable armour that stands at '11' armour value.

However, if we examine a Cohors Reformata (Post-MarianLegionary Cohort), we see something truly wrong with the armour value. Clad in a shirt of heavy chainmail and a bronze helmet, and he only has an armour value of 10!?

This becomes even more strange when examining or Polybian Triarii, who wear a bronze helm, heavy chain armour and a single bronze greave, and yet for some reason only have a mere armour value of '10', compared to the Hoplite's 11, despite the fact that the Hoplite's linen armour is vastly inferior to the chain armour of the Triarii!

Even comparing the Cohors Reformata with the Triarii, we see that the Cohors, despite lacking the single bronze greave of the Triarii, has the same armour value as the more heavily-armoured Triarii.

This becomes even more strange when we compare the Babylonian Heavy Spearmen, armoured in iron scale mail curiasses and bronze helmets. 9 armour. 9 armour for a heavy scale cuirass and a bronze helmet? A levy phalangite has 8, for a bronze helm and a linen cuirass?

It almost seems like the more armour a unit wears on the model, the less protection it offers!

[Rolling Thunder]

Bump, could someone answer my questions?

[Apázlinemjó]

Bump, could someone answer my questions?

To answer your question with a short sentence: balancing the units was more important than giving armour values by skins. I agree this unit stat modding policy of EB team.

[vartan]

To answer your question with a short sentence: balancing the units was more important than giving armour values by skins. I agree this unit stat modding policy of EB team.

Can you translate that into everyday American English please? As far as I know, the EB team uses the WYSWIG system where they give each type of armour a certain value (albeit rarely inconsistently ). What does 'giving armour values by skins' mean?

[Apázlinemjó]

Can you translate that into everyday American English please? As far as I know, the EB team uses the WYSWIG system where they give each type of armour a certain value (albeit rarely inconsistently ). What does 'giving armour values by skins' mean?

I thought they gave certain values, but they "overwrote" that because of unit balancing.

[vartan]

I thought they gave certain values, but they "overwrote" that because of unit balancing.

Sure. Why not?

EDIT: Didn't you read what I wrote? At times, inconsistently.

[Ludens]

I thought they gave certain values, but they "overwrote" that because of unit balancing.

There are a few balancing adjustments to my knowledge (barbarian units get +1 armour, phalangites get reduced armour and increased shield), but beyond that armour and shield stats are consistently based on equipment. In this particular case: the EB team considers linothorax to be almost as good chainmail, and the standard hoplite wears leather or a linothorax reinforced with metal plates.

[Rolling Thunder]

To answer your question with a short sentence: balancing the units was more important than giving armour values by skins. I agree this unit stat modding policy of EB team.

And thus realism (and thus historical accuracy) was not so much discarded as it was kicked down a giant well by the king of Sparta.

There are a few balancing adjustments to my knowledge (barbarian units get +1 armour, phalangites get reduced armour and increased shield), but beyond that armour and shield stats are consistently based on equipment. In this particular case: the EB team considers linothorax to be almost as good chainmail, and the standard hoplite wears leather or a linothorax reinforced with metal plates.

I must politely disagree with the EB team. The linenthorax is excellent armour - equal or superior to the bronze muscle cuirass that is replaced - but it is neither as covering nor as effective as chainmail. Unless it is literally immune to sword slashes as chainmail is, highly resistant to thrusts and blunt trauma as well, then it is, put simply, not as good as chainmail. Leather armour isn't even as effective as padded armour (unless reinforced with plates).

[abou]

Linothorax has been tested by reenactment and found to be quite resilient to thrusts and blunt trauma. Furthermore, chain mail would actually be weak against a thrust since the rings could split, but it is generally better against a slash - quite good, in fact. Reinforced linothorax is quite excellent armor as well due to the iron banding or scale. As such, reinforced linothorax is equal to chain mail.

The hoplites have helmets (which are Attic, not Corinthian) with cheek-guards, plus two greaves, plus reinforced linothorax and hence the higher value. If anything, it seems we may have made a mistake and that the hoplites armor value should be 12, the triarii 11, and the cohors reformata 10 since they lack greaves.

[Apázlinemjó]

I feel enlightened.

[vartan]

I must politely disagree with the EB team. The linenthorax is excellent armour - equal or superior to the bronze muscle cuirass that is replaced - but it is neither as covering nor as effective as chainmail. Unless it is literally immune to sword slashes as chainmail is, highly resistant to thrusts and blunt trauma as well, then it is, put simply, not as good as chainmail. Leather armour isn't even as effective as padded armour (unless reinforced with plates).

Chain mail is highly vulnerable to blunt trauma. Internal bleeding is a big issue.

[Rolling Thunder]

Chain mail is highly vulnerable to blunt trauma. Internal bleeding is a big issue.

Not so much if you consider chain is always worn with padded armour underneath it.

Linothorax has been tested by reenactment and found to be quite resilient to thrusts and blunt trauma. Furthermore, chain mail would actually be weak against a thrust since the rings could split, but it is generally better against a slash - quite good, in fact. Reinforced linothorax is quite excellent armor as well due to the iron banding or scale. As such, reinforced linothorax is equal to chain mail.

The hoplites have helmets (which are Attic, not Corinthian) with cheek-guards, plus two greaves, plus reinforced linothorax and hence the higher value. If anything, it seems we may have made a mistake and that the hoplites armor value should be 12, the triarii 11, and the cohors reformata 10 since they lack greaves.

The linenthorax is excellent armour, no doubt. It's light, cheap to make and resilient, like you said, to thrusts and blunt damage. But the thing is, so is chainmail. Not to the degree it is against slashes, which it's pretty much invincible against, but I would be fairly confident in saying it's generally superior armour by a more significant factor than 1 or 2 AV. The iron or scale banding on reinforced linen armour is only around the belly region in EB, which would offer less protection still than a full haubergon or hauberk. That said, I would agree that it's equal-ish to chainmail armour.