Roman Polanski- No Justice Needed

[Lemur]

I kept one eye on the wires today, waiting to see if Switzerland would cough up a better explanation. They never did. Too call their behavior pathetic implies a feeling of pathos, which is much too generous for them. I guess "contempt" would be the best word, both for describing their actions and my reaction.

[Don Corleone]

These are the same people that took the Nazi gold deposits (aka gold filling ripped out of Jewish children's mouths with pliers) so the Nazis could fund their war efforts and inflict their horrors on every European country.... except for Switzerland that is....

Is anybody surprised that the Swiss are taking the lowest possible road? A morally bankrupt fugitive holing up in a morally bankrupt nation. Hand in glove I say.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes, a loss for justice in the USA.

But here is a question for you: what makes you think the Swiss have any (moral or other) obligation to the USA to extradite this man? The USA has no jurisdiction over anyone who is in Switzerland (even people from the USA are immune from USA law by virtue of being in Switzerland). The USA can merely ask the Swiss nicely and if the Swiss don't want to play that game, then too bad.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes, a loss for justice in the USA.

But here is a question for you: what makes you think the Swiss have any (moral or other) obligation to the USA to extradite this man? The USA has no jurisdiction over anyone who is in Switzerland (even people from the USA are immune from USA law by virtue of being in Switzerland). The USA can merely ask the Swiss nicely and if the Swiss don't want to play that game, then too bad.

Err, is raping 13 year olds not wrong in switzerland? Of course it is.

[Beskar]

Why hasn't the CIA just kidnapped him already?

[Centurion1]

The cia doesn't deal with people like this first of all bedkar.

This man is filth and should be made to answer for his heinous crimes. Plus his movies blew so we aren't losing anyone important from the world of film.

True the swiss don't have to give him up. But what does that say about the swiss national character that they in essence defend this scum. I mean I expect celebrities to defend him they are brainless shells of people, its to be expected, but a lawful state government. Hell this isn't bleeding north korea or zimbabwe its flipping switzerland!

[Meneldil]

Err, is raping 13 year olds not wrong in switzerland? Of course it is.

Yes it is. But as long as nobody wants to start a trial for it in Switzerland, then he's free. Since the girl said she dropped the charge, I can't see why the Swiss would hurt their business by doing it.

Now, since it's mostly Americans who've answered to the topic so far, I think I should warn you that the public opinion is quite torn about Polanski. He received almost unanimous support from the intelligentsia and he still has his aura of excellent movie maker. That certainly doesn't excuse anything, but this is to be taken into account. You all are getting mad over it on the other side of the pond. Here things aren't so clear cut.

Secondly, it's quite funny to see you all getting mad about it, when the US have repeatedly refused to abide to international law a few billion times. Now, you want to put some hollywood phoney in jail to look tough, Switzerland refuses and you get all crazy about it.

True the swiss don't have to give him up. But what does that say about the swiss national character that they in essence defend this scum. I mean I expect celebrities to defend him they are brainless shells of people, its to be expected, but a lawful state government. Hell this isn't bleeding north korea or zimbabwe its flipping switzerland!

What the hell man? The US supported and defended a bunch of dictators all over the world and it's alright. The Swiss defend a dude who's admited to have sex with an underage girl decades ago and it means Switzerland should dig itself into the ground? It's time to make a reality check.

The same applies to Don's comment. A large part of the Swiss population wanted the country to join France and UK in the war, and the country also became a heaven for people who fled and opposed the Nazis, at least until late 1943.

I certainly don't like Switzerland and its banking policies. But the amount of Switzerland-hate displayed in this topic is laughable.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes it is. But as long as nobody wants to start a trial for it in Switzerland, then he's free. Since the girl said she dropped the charge, I can't see why the Swiss would hurt their business by doing it.

You know...justice, morality that sort of thing.

Now, since it's mostly Americans who've answered to the topic so far, I think I should warn you that the public opinion is quite torn about Polanski. He received almost unanimous support from the intelligentsia and he still has his aura of excellent movie maker. That certainly doesn't excuse anything, but this is to be taken into account. You all are getting mad over it on the other side of the pond. Here things aren't so clear cut.

What an understatement! How could things be clear cut, I mean on the one hand he drugged and raped 13 year old and on the other hand people are undecided and he makes good movies.

Secondly, it's quite funny to see you all getting mad about it, when the US have repeatedly refused to abide to international law a few billion times. Now, you want to put some hollywood phoney in jail to look tough, Switzerland refuses and you get all crazy about it.

Why so nationalist? I don't see what this has to do with the countries. I guess you are directing this at don even though it with the first set.

[Andres]

Yes it is. But as long as nobody wants to start a trial for it in Switzerland, then he's free. Since the girl said she dropped the charge, I can't see why the Swiss would hurt their business by doing it.

Because he's a child rapist.

Now, since it's mostly Americans who've answered to the topic so far, I think I should warn you that the public opinion is quite torn about Polanski. He received almost unanimous support from the intelligentsia and he still has his aura of excellent movie maker. That certainly doesn't excuse anything, but this is to be taken into account. You all are getting mad over it on the other side of the pond. Here things aren't so clear cut.

He's a child rapist. I, for one, don't care if he made good movies or not. He's a child rapist.

Secondly, it's quite funny to see you all getting mad about it, when the US have repeatedly refused to abide to international law a few billion times. Now, you want to put some hollywood phoney in jail to look tough, Switzerland refuses and you get all crazy about it.

Schoolyard rhetoric. "You did something wrong too, so you can't be outraged now!" Meh. He's a child rapist. No matter how many times the US have "refused to abid international law", that doesn't take away that we're talking about a child rapist. There's no excuse to protect the scumbag.

What the hell man? The US supported and defended a bunch of dictators all over the world and it's alright.

No, it's not allright, far from it. Next to that, what crimes the US have or have not committed is completely irrelevant. Polanski is a child rapist and hasn't served his sentence.

The Swiss defend a dude who's admited to have sex with an underage girl decades ago and it means Switzerland should dig itself into the ground? It's time to make a reality check.

The "dude" is a child rapist. There is no reason for protecting such scum. There are also no excuses.

The same applies to Don's comment. A large part of the Swiss population wanted the country to join France and UK in the war, and the country also became a heaven for people who fled and opposed the Nazis, at least until late 1943.

I certainly don't like Switzerland and its banking policies. But the amount of Switzerland-hate displayed in this topic is laughable.

Your amount of US-hate in this thread is totally misplaced and completely unnecessary. We're talking about a country protecting a child rapist. I fail to see how one can defend that.

[Rhyfelwyr]

All this country bashing is irrelevant. Sure the USA is far from perfect when it comes to abiding international law and protecting nasty figures. But this guy isn't some third word dictator, there's no politics involved, so why can't two western, developed nations work together to put a child rapist and escaped felon behind bars?

[rory_20_uk]

On a personal level the child rapist should go to jail. I don't care what he does with 100 nude, nubile 18 year olds - paid or otherwise, male or female. I'd even have some sympathy with 16-17 as yes, sexual development is not a switch at 18. BUT 13 is even for a drug soaked letch too far.

But as has been pointed out, the underlying message again appears to be that in the USA there is a price on justice. If you can afford the price, you can buy it off, whether George Bush's drugs / alcohol or Paris's drugs charges and of course dear old Roman.

Let's face it, what chance would any non-famous escaped kiddie-****** in running to Europe?

The girl dropped the case. So what? It is still a criminal matter as he broke the law, her likely payoff notwithstanding.

He's lived most of his life in France since this event. They never even bothered to arrest him and wriggle out of doing anything.

[Slyspy]

Everyone I know believes he is a scumbag paedo who happens to have more than a little skill in making movies. Unsurprisingly they think the former outweighs the latter. In the rarified air of the film industry (and to some extent the arts in general) the balance appears to have swung the other way. How anyone can justify this fugitive's continuing liberty is beyond me. Frankly even the original sentence seems bizarre, let alone the current situation.

[Meneldil]

Your amount of US-hate in this thread is totally misplaced and completely unnecessary. We're talking about a country protecting a child rapist. I fail to see how one can defend that.

Yada yada. He's a child rapist, fine. And then?

I don't give a damn about Roman Polanski. I'm actually in favor of him being sent to the US to face a trial and find the people who protect him quite disgusting.

But I'm certainly not in favor of Americans going all "ZOMGWTFBBQ" and starting some Swiss-hate madness because Switzerland refuses to extradites one person who's not even guilty of murder.
How many dictators have been supported by the US? How many criminals have been protected by the US? How many people have been killed because of your the US, France, Belgium?
Take back your "morally bankrupt nation" and other similar nation bashing, have a drink, cool down and then I might agree with you all.
Bash Polanski and the people who protect him (that includes most of the french intelligentsia) all you want, but bashing Switzerland isn't going to help your cause.

And yes, people who don't play by the rules have no right to feel outraged when someone else does the same. It's called (not) having a moral high ground.

Actually, what's going on here is quite silly and disgusting. Nobody cares about his victim or even about justice. The main issue here is trying to look tough on the international scene. Since Polanski is kind of a big-deal, it's all about either:
- showing that none can escape the almighty, fair but blind US justice
or
- showing that the Switzerland will stand for freedom and resist the tyrannical US

I say forget Polanski and start bothering about war criminals and dictators. That will be so much more useful.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Now, since it's mostly Americans who've answered to the topic so far, I think I should warn you that the public opinion is quite torn about Polanski. He received almost unanimous support from the intelligentsia

That says a lot more about those 'intelligentsia' than anything else.

and he still has his aura of excellent movie maker. That certainly doesn't excuse anything, but this is to be taken into account. You all are getting mad over it on the other side of the pond. Here things aren't so clear cut.

Taken into account? Like, a mitigating circumstance? "Oh, he raped kids, but we French intelligentsia like his films, so he doesn't deserve a big punishment."?

**** that.

CR

[TinCow]

The USA has no jurisdiction over anyone who is in Switzerland (even people from the USA are immune from USA law by virtue of being in Switzerland).

Incorrect. The US has jurisdiction over:

1) Anyone who commits a crime inside the United States or on US territory.
2) Anyone who commits a crime against a United States citizen, even if that crime occurred outside the United States.
3) Any United States citizen, regardless of what they have done, where they did it, and who they did it to.

The US has jurisdiction over Polanski under #1. Switzerland's failure to hand him over has nothing to do with jurisdiction, that's an entirely separate issue from extradition.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Incorrect. The US has jurisdiction over:

1) Anyone who commits a crime inside the United States or on US territory.
2) Anyone who commits a crime against a United States citizen, even if that crime occurred outside the United States.
3) Any United States citizen, regardless of what they have done, where they did it, and who they did it to.

The US has jurisdiction over Polanski under #1. Switzerland's failure to hand him over has nothing to do with jurisdiction, that's an entirely separate issue from extradition.

The same holds true for any country, simply substitute the country name. No, the point is that there is a concept of “primacy” of jurisdiction: e.g. in the Neterlands it is Dutch law that even a US citizen will have to abide by, or risk prosecution under Dutch law -- even if under USA law there would be no case to answer to (e.g. carrying guns). In Switzerland, it is the Swiss version of law which matters.

@Sasaki: I am not arguing that what Roman Polanski did is not deserving of extradition (not to mention proper punishment). I'm arguing that the Swiss run their own independent country and therefore that they get to decide who is extradited from Switzerland and who isn't. The specific charges are not all that relevant to this.
@Rory: Polanski is a French citizen so he cannot be extradited from France (legal protection). The USA could've asked the French to launch charges of their own, but the USA didn't do this. So that's what, 42 years of not doing anything about it... ?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

@Sasaki: I am not arguing that what Roman Polanski did is not deserving of extradition (not to mention proper punishment). I'm arguing that the Swiss run their own independent country and therefore that they get to decide who is extradited from Switzerland and who isn't. The specific charges are not all that relevant to this.

This argument is simply "if you can do it, it is ok for you to do it". But no one is suggesting that they aren't the ones who decide who gets extradited. The very premise of the thread is that they decide who gets extradited. But whether their decision was good or not--that is the topic of the thread. It's all about the specific charges

[TinCow]

No, the point is that there is a concept of “primacy” of jurisdiction: e.g. in the Neterlands it is Dutch law that even a US citizen will have to abide by, or risk prosecution under Dutch law -- even if under USA law there would be no case to answer to (e.g. carrying guns). In Switzerland, it is the Swiss version of law which matters.

...

I'm arguing that the Swiss run their own independent country and therefore that they get to decide who is extradited from Switzerland and who isn't. The specific charges are not all that relevant to this.

Those are prefectly fair statements, but it doesn't really change the fact that Switzerland appears to have gotten cold feet about this situation and backed out to save their own reputation.

@Rory: Polanski is a French citizen so he cannot be extradited from France (legal protection). The USA could've asked the French to launch charges of their own, but the USA didn't do this. So that's what, 42 years of not doing anything about it... ?

The US has tried to prosecute him continuously since he fled. They tried to extradite him in '78 (UK), '86 (Canada), '94 (France), '05 (Thailand), and '07 (Israel) but failed to get him. With the exception of France (which does not extradite its own citizens), all those attempts failed because Polanski fled those countries before he could be caught and/or before the paperwork was complete. Polanksi has largely avoided extradition by keeping his movements very secret when he was in countries where he was at risk of being arrested and sent to the US. He typically did not announce his intentions to visit those countries and just showed up, did his business, and left quickly. There has also been an Interpol alert active on Polanski since 2002, which is the authority under which he was finally arrested in Switzerland. This is definitely not a case of the US being lazy about prosecuting him.

[PanzerJaeger]

I thoroughly enjoyed The Pianist.

[Husar]

These are the same people that took the Nazi gold deposits (aka gold filling ripped out of Jewish children's mouths with pliers) so the Nazis could fund their war efforts and inflict their horrors on every European country.... except for Switzerland that is....

Is anybody surprised that the Swiss are taking the lowest possible road? A morally bankrupt fugitive holing up in a morally bankrupt nation. Hand in glove I say.

Why haven't you extradited the scum that abducted other countries' citizens, tortured them in secret places and then locked them up in a concentration camp without trial? And now you're throwing a tantrum because that small country dares not to bow to the will of the mighty, moral US of A, while it may have been better had he been extradited, it's quite pathetic to see US citizens get worked up over this issue and compare Switzerland to North Korea etc. because of one single case.

Meh, I think he should serve his sentence but I do wonder why the US were unable to provide the court sentence when they were asked for it repeatedly?

You already managed to get that drug baron from marihuana island against the will of their people, now you didn't get someone and the concerned country as a whole joins the "axis of evil" or what?

Or to add another sentence, you do the sovereign nation dance every 4th of July, yet when another nation acts as a sovereign nation instead of your vassal you get angry and compare them to the nazis, the terrorists and whatever else is bad in the world.

Hint: I'm not linking the USAs' behaviour to the guilt or innocence of Roman Polanski, I'm just ourtraged at some of the comments and comparisons here.
If Roman Polanski is guilty, he should obviously serve his sentence.

[Jolt]

Why haven't you extradited the scum that abducted other countries' citizens, tortured them in secret places and then locked them up in a concentration camp without trial? And now you're throwing a tantrum because that small country dares not to bow to the will of the mighty, moral US of A, while it may have been better had he been extradited, it's quite pathetic to see US citizens get worked up over this issue and compare Switzerland to North Korea etc. because of one single case.

I would like to see Kissinger extradited to Chile.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Why haven't you extradited the scum that abducted other countries' citizens, tortured them in secret places and then locked them up in a concentration camp without trial? And now you're throwing a tantrum because that small country dares not to bow to the will of the mighty, moral US of A, while it may have been better had he been extradited,

Don't bring nationalism into it. You guys are the only ones who see it that way. I've never met or even heard of an American who would throw a tantrum just because a small country acts independently. The objection is because of the particulars of polanski's act.

it's quite pathetic to see US citizens get worked up over this issue and compare Switzerland to North Korea etc. because of one single case.

"this isn't north korea" is comparing switzerland to north korea?

Meh, I think he should serve his sentence but I do wonder why the US were unable to provide the court sentence when they were asked for it repeatedly?

TinCow answered that previously.

Hint: I'm not linking the USAs' behaviour to the guilt or innocence of Roman Polanski, I'm just ourtraged at some of the comments and comparisons here.
If Roman Polanski is guilty, he should obviously serve his sentence.

Yes, you aren't linking it, you're trying talk about it as if the US was trying to extradite someone for marijuana use.

[Husar]

Don't bring nationalism into it. You guys are the only ones who see it that way. I've never met or even heard of an American who would throw a tantrum just because a small country acts independently. The objection is because of the particulars of polanski's act.

Don't bring Nazi gold and other weird accusations of moral decay into it. I for one don't know a single swiss person who owns Nazi gold, suffers from complete moral decay or supports a child rapist. You guys are the only one who see them that way. You can get angry about the whole denial but when you go and call the whole country nazi supporters and morally bankrupt etc. that's a bit much, isn't it?

And if I understand TinCow correctly, then the US justice system allowed him to buy himself out of prison with a lot of money, giving him enough time to flee. Does the system treat all very dangerous, child raping scumbags like that?
Could he have fled without being rich/having rich friends?

[drone]

He posted bail, which is generally allowed prior to sentencing to let the suspect sort things out before the trial/sentencing. Bail is generally set according to the crime, and can be denied outright if the suspect is a flight risk or dangerous. Bail is not a way to get out of a sentenced prison term.

I assume he used his own money for bail. Poorer suspects can get a bail-bondsman to post for them (with a small percentage put up by the suspect), but skipping bail on a bail-bondsman means both cops and bounty hunters will come after you.

[Beskar]

I assume he used his own money for bail. Poorer suspects can get a bail-bondsman to post for them (with a small percentage put up by the suspect), but skipping bail on a bail-bondsman means both cops and bounty hunters will come after you.

What legality do bounty hunters have within the states?

[TinCow]

And if I understand TinCow correctly, then the US justice system allowed him to buy himself out of prison with a lot of money, giving him enough time to flee. Does the system treat all very dangerous, child raping scumbags like that?
Could he have fled without being rich/having rich friends?

Uh... the concept of Bail is pretty much universal in most modern nations. Germany uses it as well, so I'm confused by your surprise at the concept.

The basic idea is that incarcerating people is expensive. Since the accused is innocent until proven guilty, it is usually deemed acceptable to release them from prison (and thus free up prison space) until their trial. However, we of course do not want people to run away. So, depending on the circumstances of each individual case, the accused can be allowed to pay a certain amount of money to guarantee that they show up in court for their trial. The more serious the crime and the more likely a person is to flee, the greater the cost. People who are considered likely to run away will be denied bail altogether. If the person runs away, the money is forfeit until they re-appear. That is where bounty hunters fit in. They work for Bail Bondsmen, who employ them to go and catch people who have fled and thus forfeited the bail bondsman's money.

In the case of Polanski, he was not considered a flight risk. Who in their right mind would have expected a successful and famous Hollywood director to flee the United States and never come back for the next 33 years? It didn't seem likely at all, and the sheer spectacle of it is proven by the infamy that surrounds this case.

[Don Corleone]

Hi everyone,
Sorry, going to have to be brief, before one of the kids wakes up.

First, didn't mean to ruffle so many feathers. Didn't try to avoid it either, but it wasn't my intent to offend, just highlight facts.

Sure, the USA has done a lot of despicable things. As Andres pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. If your only moral standard is "a CIA phoenix team has done worse and nobody has prosecuted them yet...", you're going to crawl through a sewer, on your belly.... Not trying to defend everything we've ever done.

I wasn't trying to fling pooh at the Swiss, I was trying to highlight a reality. Quite frankly, and my apologies to any Swiss here... they appear to my humble eye to have a national character of 'Anything for a buck'. I've been to Switzerland several times, its a lovely place and on a personal level, the people are quite affable and pleasant. Great engineers, great bankers, great education... yaddah yaddah.

But what has Switzerland ever stood for? Anything goes... they take anybody's money, raised any which way, no questions asked.

When the CIA does things like sell heroin to fund an illegal war, do you think they put their money in American banks? Nope. Not a legacy I'd want to be attached to.

By the way, sorry I touched a nerve Husar. Good to see you old friend. Hopefully I'll find a thread where I won't be peeing in your Cheerios and we can catch up there.

[Husar]

Uh... the concept of Bail is pretty much universal in most modern nations. Germany uses it as well, so I'm confused by your surprise at the concept.

I'm surprised that he was allowed to post bail if he is such a disgusting person, he could have raped another girl thinking he'd end up in prison for a long time anyway.