"Tax the rich!" - The dumbest slogan ever.

[HoreTore]

Not just a dumb slogan, but a completely idiotic policy as well.

There have been some documentaries shown about the last US presidential election lately(and when I say lately, I mean "this spring"). A common theme among the Obama-supporters is that he wants to cut taxes for the middle class and raise taxes for "the rich".

To me, a European socialist commie-hippie, that's about as dumb as it gets.

They make it sound like the rich are some kind of money fountain that never empties, and we can just tap into it and live happily ever after. Unfortunately, reality is different. In any society with something that amounts to a welfare state, the most important aspect is the tax morale. People will have to see their taxes as just and appropriate, if not then they won't be paid. That goes for every layer of society; poor, rich and everyone in-between. The rich simply will not accept paying too high taxes, and if you try to make them, they have the money to leave the country easily - which they will. But that's really quite irrelevant, because the real issue is that taxing rich people harder than everyone else simply isn't just. A higher tax will be seen as a punishment, and we shouldn't punish someone for making a lot of money.

Everyone should pay the same level of tax. If the tax level is 28%, then you should pay 28% whether you make 500.000 or 500.000.000 per year. It will probably be acceptable for everyone to lower the tax a little for those with low incomes, but those making around the average income in a country should pay the full tax - and those making more than that should pay the same.

If you want the government to fund new stuff, fine; but be aware that you are the one who's going to pay for it through taxes. You can't expect "the rich" to buy it for you.

[Brenus]

Yeah. Taxe the poors in more efficient as they don't have opportunities to open bank accounts in fiscal paradise, or to pay financial advisers (if possible the wife of a minister) to evade to pay.

[HoreTore]

Yeah. Taxe the poors in more efficient as they don't have opportunities to open bank accounts in fiscal paradise, or to pay financial advisers (if possible the wife of a minister) to evade to pay.

No, they have no money. Tax the working and middle classes. And tax the rich the same amount as everyone else.

[Beskar]

You got it the wrong way, relative wealth. The poor need the money for essentials, the rich don't need money. So a rich person paying your hypothetical 28% is not the same as a poor person paying 28%. The 28% applied on the rich does not affect standard of living, while it does on the poor. This is resolved with what is called "progressive taxation". Also, there is the other factor that rich people on average pay a lesser percentage than the poor, due to the type of income they recieve and where it comes from. So while poorer classes recieve direct income from an employer. The rich generally don't. There are other examples where the rich constantly try fraud, tax evasion and tax havens.

When people also start earning more than £200,000 then it starts falling in the terrority of exploitation. That is over ten times the average wage, and the vast minority of the rich actually work less than those earning that average wage (cue: football players, actors, Johnathan Ross, etc) or simply inherited that wealth, or even have the influence over people doing the work, to give them large amounts of money. All that money could easily be used in different ways, such as lowering the costs to the consumers, or even giving a pay rise to those at the bottom.

Either way, you don't hear stories about starving millionaires and billionaires.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You can either take a car away from 10 poor families, or a watch away from a rich man.

[HoreTore]

You got it the wrong way, relative wealth. The poor need the money for essentials, the rich don't need money.

Actual need is quite irrelevant when it comes to whether a tax is seen as just. And when did the middle class become "poor"...? I can pay a few % more in tax without noticing it on my standard of living, just as I can pay less and not notice anything. Just like a rich guy. Hence, no reason why we shouldn't pay the same.

Either way, you don't hear stories about starving millionaires and billionaires.

No, but we have plenty of stories of billionares who move to cyprus or some other tax haven.

And the bottom line is that taxing the rich isn't like finding Ali Baba's treasure; there really isn't that much money to collect. There is far more money in raising the tax for the middle class, due to their number.

[Myrddraal]

And the bottom line is that taxing the rich isn't like finding Ali Baba's treasure; there really isn't that much money to collect. There is far more money in raising the tax for the middle class, due to their number.

Of course, but that doesn't mean that progressive taxes are bad or even useless.

[HoreTore]

Of course, but that doesn't mean that progressive taxes are bad or even useless.

As I said, I support them up to around the average wage. But I firmly believe that the middle class should pay the same tax as the rich.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Progressive income taxes serve to really stick the bill onto the upper middle class. The rich can lobby/account/hide/obfuscate/purchase tax shelters so as to protect some of that nicely aged money of theirs. The professionals and those working hard to become rich are the ones most hammered by a progressive income tax.

If you want to tax wealth, tax wealth. If you want to tax income, Horetore is easily on the better track. Have a personal exemption of X for each individual on the tax return (amount determined as the minimum needed to prevent poverty level). Tax all remaining income at the same rate. Let's the go-getters build wealth and build the economy, doesn't unduly hammer the poor and/or ne'er-do-wells, and (by defining income fairly broadly but not double taxing on estates etc.) should serve to minimize tax evasion (legal and otherwise) by the rich.

[drone]

Either way, you don't hear stories about starving millionaires and billionaires.

Yes you do, but they are just actresses with eating disorders.

[Brenus]

“No, they have no money” Yes they have. How do they pay their cigarettes and their alcohol…?
And there are more poor than rich. Thousand poor make one rich.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Bah, filthy capitalists and their evil ways.


Civilised societies have a progressive tax system.

Except for Norway, which has an infinte ATM in the North Sea and consequently has much lower personal taxation than the rest of Northwest Europe. The more I learn about Norway, the more I don't understand why the EU doesn't just send an expedionairy force to liberate it. Can't some Fins fly a few planes in some Brussels' highrises, that we have an excuse to invade Norway?

[Beskar]

Should serve to minimize tax evasion (legal and otherwise) by the rich.

You might think so, but that will never happen. They would just continue it.

As for Ali Baba's treasure, if the top few went without receiving a wage for a year and gave it all to the government, then the USA would well be on its on way of clearing its national debt. As after all, they could afford not to receive anything for a year and it would save the American economy almost over-night, along with as if all the tax evaders were clean with their tax bills, etc.

[HoreTore]

Except for Norway, which has an infinte ATM in the North Sea and consequently has much lower personal taxation than the rest of Northwest Europe.

Art thou insane?

The tax level for Norway is over 56.7%, according to this. Which beats the rest of Europe by a large margin.

should serve to minimize tax evasion (legal and otherwise) by the rich.

Legal stuff won't ever reduce tax evasion by much; increasing tax morale is the only way. If people agree that their tax is appropriate, they will pay it. And people won't accept paying much more in taxes than others.

[Vladimir]

Horetore is right (yes, I'm sober). The middle class is where the money is. Tax them.

Edit: Wait? Did he just advocate a flat tax?! My man.

[drone]

As for Ali Baba's treasure, if the top few went without recieving a wage for a year and gave it all to the government, then the USA would have cleared its national debt. As afterall, they could afford not to recieve anything for a year and it would save the American economy almost over-night.

You are seriously underestimating America's debt, and seriously overestimating how rich people get paid. Wages are a pittance.

[Vladimir]

You are seriously underestimating America's debt, and seriously overestimating how rich people get paid. Wages are a pittance.

I think he means wealth; and no, he doesn't know much about the U.S.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yes, Hore!

The tax system should be based on equity, not need. People above the poverty level should be taxed at the same rate.

[TinCow]

No, but we have plenty of stories of billionares who move to cyprus or some other tax haven.

Then you should adopt the US tax code: US citizens are taxed on all of their earnings, even if they are made entirely overseas. Dodging US taxes by moving is impossible. The only way to do it is to renounce your US citizenship, and pretty much no one chooses to do that even with the very harsh ex-pat tax policy.

[HoreTore]

Horetore is right (yes, I'm sober). The middle class is where the money is. Tax them.

Edit: Wait? Did he just advocate a flat tax?! My man.

Not really....

I'm also a very big fan of deductables and added tax.... Ie. you can get a tax refund if you insulate your house better, which lowers your power need... But I am all in favour of taxing the hell out of you should you want to have heat cables in your driveway so you won't have to shuffle snow during the winter(yes, people do that.)...

Then you should adopt the US tax code: US citizens are taxed on all of their earnings, even if they are made entirely overseas. Dodging US taxes by moving is impossible. The only way to do it is to renounce your US citizenship, and pretty much no one chooses to do that even with the very harsh ex-pat tax policy.

Then US billionares use some other method of dodging taxes. The end result remains the same, how they do it is irrelevant.

EDIT: And I very much doubt that people care about losing a Norwegian citizenship....

[Beskar]

Then you should adopt the US tax code: US citizens are taxed on all of their earnings, even if they are made entirely overseas. Dodging US taxes by moving is impossible. The only way to do it is to renounce your US citizenship, and pretty much no one chooses to do that even with the very harsh ex-pat tax policy.

Didn't know the US did that, but I know Israel does. Britain doesn't, it only taxes on income earned domestically.

[TinCow]

Then US billionares use some other method of dodging taxes. The end result remains the same, how they do it is irrelevant.

Tell that to UBS and HSBC.

[HoreTore]

Tell that to UBS and HSBC.

I have no idea what you're talking about....

[TinCow]

I have no idea what you're talking about....

The US Department of Justice started going after major tax evaders by going after their banks. They started with UBS, who got slaughtered and took a huge loss over the scandal. It was so bad that the Swiss government had to give up trying to protect them:

UBS paid a $780 million fine last year and admitted criminal wrongdoing in connection with offshore services sold to wealthy Americans through its private bank that allowed them to evade billions of dollars in taxes. Last month, the Swiss Parliament approved a final deal to hand over to the I.R.S. the details of 4,450 accounts used by wealthy Americans suspected of evading taxes.

Now the DoJ is doing the same thing to HSBC. (Link) The problem for the banks it that the value of their business (and the business of the countries that harbor them) in the US is far higher than the value of the business they get from hiding US tax evaders. The US government realized this recently and started tightening the screws. The banks can still hide the information if they want, but the US government will still fine them and confiscate their assets inside the US. Essentially, it just got a lot harder for US tax evaders, because now they need to find banks that are small enough that they don't care about doing business in the US... and there's not exactly a whole lot of those.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Art thou insane?

The tax level for Norway is over 56.7%, according to this. Which beats the rest of Europe by a large margin.

Nah, that's not really the most useful. For income taxes, check this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Norway is well below the other social paradises of Northwest Europe. Most Norwegians, except those in very high income brackets, pay a measly 28% income tax. If I'm a good boy and die and go to heaven, I'll only ever have to pay 28% income tax ever again.

[HoreTore]

Nah, that's not really the most useful. For income taxes, check this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Norway is well below the other social paradises of Northwest Europe. Most Norwegians, except those in very high income brackets, pay a measly 28% income tax. If I'm a good boy and die and go to heaven, I'll only ever have to pay 28% income tax ever again.

Yes, our income tax is much lower because we collect our tax in other ways.

EDIT: Why on earth you care about "income tax" is beyond me really.... The only thing that matters is the total amount of tax paid, and paid by who. Just how that tax is collected is completely irrelevant when comparing taxation between countries.

And Norway still beats all of you. Heck, a brit only pays two thirds of my tax....

[InsaneApache]

Blimey I agree with HoreTore. I'm going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a wet flannel on me head!

No wait! I realise now that he's just growing up.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Blimey I agree with HoreTore. I'm going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a wet flannel on me head!

No wait! I realise now that he's just growing up.

Growing up, getting selfish, same thing under the eyes of everyone anti-tax.

I had my gf tell me after a day of working on a movie set that she was assigned to organizing and filing whatever the papers are called that deal with taxes for the crew working on the set. She noticed that one person was making $7,000 a week. The person was losing a little under half of it to taxes. My gf then proclaims **** taxes. Do people lose sight of what is going on here? 7,000 a week is $364,000 for a year. Take in account for a moment, that instead of a movie (which I believe usually has about 40-50ish days of on set working), the guy had a stable job with a steady year round paycheck. Half of that gone means the man is making 182,000 a year! This man is still making more then 90% of Americans and I get **** taxes?

[Jolt]

But that's really quite irrelevant, because the real issue is that taxing rich people harder than everyone else simply isn't just. A higher tax will be seen as a punishment, and we shouldn't punish someone for making a lot of money.

Eh? According to the Socialist doctrine, the State's objective is to equalize the wealth in its society, and that means narrowing the gap between the rich and the poor. If everyone is taxed at exactly the same rate, the rich keep getting richer, while the poorer keep getting poorer in comparison. The classes purchase power therefore begins differing rapidly, and begins widening. A higher tax isn't neither unjust nor should be seen as a punishment (as you still make more money than poorer people regardless), and using exactly that same analogy would also show why the VAT is an unjust taxing policy. A State is about helping its citizens, and since the poorer don't have the means to earn what the rich can, then the State must tax the rich and use the funds as social transfers to level the field as best as possible for all its citizens. Anything otherwise is inherently unjust.

You're saying someone who lives on a minimum wage should give the same percentage of their earnings (Which are scarce and can barely pay all bills - if all of them - and still get through the month being fed properly and buying all the medicine they should, etc?) that of a rich banker who has absolutely no problem whatsoever in paying that amount of taxes or double that, and still go through the month paying for every luxury it wants and still have money to save? That system is inherently unjust.

[InsaneApache]

No not selfish. Realistic.

If someone's worth is $7,000 a week then it's right he/she gets the correct renumeration. I have no problem with that. One of the faults of communism is that it takes away incentive. Why get a job as, say, an oil tanker captain and get paid the same as the bog cleaner?

As for taxes. My view is that it's a racket. Taking money from some people to give to oher people is, what's the word I'm struggling for here? Oh yes I remember, it's called stealing. When it involves punishment such as fines and imprisonment if you don't pay up....now your in Al Capone territory.

Of course some taxation is necessary but punitive taxation is counter productive. I'm so pleased the scales have fallen from HoreTores eyes as he now advocates a flat rate tax. Good lad