Proposal for slingers

[geala]

Please do you a favour and don't take the cited article too seriously. The two firing modes are mere speculation. Perhaps interesting for a game however.

There is a big problem with this article, the sling ballistic performance on page 36 onwards as a base for the conclusions. Normally I don't use powerful words, but I have to do in this case: it is the greatest crap concerning ballistics I ever read in the last 20 years, I'm sorry to say. The statement alone that it takes an impact of 70 footpound to brake bones but 2 footponds to pierce the human body, is a horror to read for someone who has the slighest knowledge of terminal ballistics. Such statements make no sense for obvious reasons because the energy of a projectile is not the unit for measuring penetration power. Do you really believe that a soccer ball with 2 footponds energy would be able to penetrate the human body? You have to measure the energy per square footage to be able to say anything helpful for judging penetration capabilities.

Please believe me that a stone shot by a sling will never be able to reach the necessary energy to penetrate human tissue, let alone cloth or armor (it is nearly ridiculous to speak about such things). Why? Because a stone is a big projectile. You need 0,1 Joule/square-mm minimum of energy density to pierce human tissue. A simple cloth will multiply this. For example, a ball of 44 mm diameter will have an energy density of 0,085 J/square-mm when having an energy of 129 Joule (1 footpound is 1,36 Joule). Do you believe anything shot from a sling could penetrate with 2 footponds (2,72 Joule)?

That the article takes Hatchers RSP for judging sling bullet performance is as logical as irrelevant because the impact of a bullet has nothing to do with its effectiveness (ok, if you drive a car against a person, also the impact can be effective). All modern formulas use the energy as the factor for effectiveness.

A lead sling bullet could penetrate sometimes when it hit with an edge. Xenophon tells us about it. But don't thing that it could penetrate deep into the body and kill. Xenophon tells us too that it penetrates and disappears in the tissue. That means in many cases a superficial wound.

It is doubtful what energy a sling bullet could achieve. Data is very mixed, ranging from 30 Joule to 120 Joule. When we take the data of the article (two ounces bullet and 170 foot/second) we get an energy of about 63 Joule (with is in the range of an arrow shot by a heavier bow). Not nearly enough to penetrate deep into the body and not enough to kill an armored person. A normal .38 Special bullet has about 300 Joule, a .45. ACP about 500 Joule. That the author compares the sling with a .45 ACP pistol is only the peak of painfulness in this article.

Maybe you are not convinced. I sometime have the feeling that people like to have the sling as an ancient secret super weapon. It is not. There is a reason that slings were used only on small scales. Alexanders took with him javelinmen and archers from Crete but slingers were not explicitly labelled. Why, if it was an equivalent to modern handguns? There is a study of the U.S. Army Land Warfare Laboratory which gives us some data what non-penetrating projectiles like sling bullets can achieve, "dangerous injuries" between 40 and 120 Joule (f.e. contusions, broken ribs, blindness) and "severe injuries" about 120 Jolue (f.e. inner bleeding, broken skull). Look at the possible energies for sling bullets and you see that unarmored persons were in great danger. But add armor and shields ...

A last word: David was no ancient Jeff Cooper with a form of handgun against a dump ape named Goliath. He was a very brave young man, very good with his sling, and he hit his armored enemy at the one and only place that could win him the fight and save his live, the unarmored face of Goliath.

Edit: Unfortunately I don't have literature in English to cite. For those able to read German a look into Kneubuehl, Coupland, Rothschild, Thali "Wundballistik", 3. Aufl. 2008, S. 253 ff. would be helpful.

[vartan]

You're right geala, but there is one unfortunate fact regarding the Total War engines: they do not have an option for the modder to enter in impact area of projectiles. I don't even think it allows initial average velocity and average mass of projectiles.

[SlickNicaG69]

The advantage of a slinger over an archer during the classical age was in his accuracy, precisely for the reason you gave: that it was usually fired directly (in a straight line) rather than indirectly (in an arch). An arrow could be heavily influenced by the wind or rain, whereas the sling was practically immune from conditions of use.

But as to your suggestion, there was no distinction amongst a unit of slingers besides experience. Yes, different types of slingers were better than others (i.e. Balaeric), but within that group (i.e. Balaeric) there was no distinction between elite and regular that I think you are trying to insinuate at. Even if there was, it is entirely a novel aspect of history that we managed to ascertain it and nothing else, and certainly not enough to warrant an "elite" slinger unit, such as Elite Balearics or Elite Celtic slingers. Slingers were considered elite by their cultural reknown and traditions, such as Balearic and Rhodisian, and because, face it, such peoples style of fighting was geared to that style. You wouldn't expect a Gaul to be as proficient as slinging.

It was the custom of the day, that when a slinger achieved distinction, he was promoted to the weilding of a spear or sword. These ranks, of true soldiers, was the area of distinction of the times.

[Captain Trek]

Well, I don't know much about the historical use of slingers, but these have been my in game experiences with slingers and other ranged untis:

First of all, in M2TW, as others have said, archers and crossbowmen (but not handgunners) gained the ability to fire over obstacles in an extremely tall arc (pointing their bows or crossbows almost straight up as others have mentioned), something that actually rather does remsemble the "plunging" sling fire supposedly mentioned in the article. I haven't played that game in a while, but I remember this sort of fire being extremely inaccurate and I also recall having a tendency to go out of my way to ensure that my ranged units never fired on the enemy using this method (as to do so would, for the most part, would merely be wasting ammunition). I for one can't see any reason why slinger's couldn't be allowed to have this ability in EB 2, particularly when its impact on gameplay (from what I recall) is minimal.

Back in EB, meanwhile... I've been playing through a Makedon campaign lately and in my main army, two units of Cretians and two units of Spendonetai have been in direct competition almost the entire way throughout the campaign, the interesting thing being that there's almost nothing in it in terms of their effectiveness... Both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to get similar numbers of kills in each battle and three of the four units are on two silver chevrons (one of the Cretian units is on one silver). Additionally, in siege battles, by setting them up along the edge of the deployment area closest to the section of the town's walls I intend to assault with my rams, both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to have absolutely no trouble firing over Tier 2 walls (the bigger wooden ones) from that position... I don't know whether this indicates that slingers are overpowered in EB, but I think it may be something to consider...

[vartan]

Additionally, in siege battles, by setting them up along the edge of the deployment area closest to the section of the town's walls I intend to assault with my rams, both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to have absolutely no trouble firing over Tier 2 walls (the bigger wooden ones) from that position... I don't know whether this indicates that slingers are overpowered in EB, but I think it may be something to consider...

Thank you for that. I didn't know it and it's important for me. I'll consider it and keep it in mind.

[geala]

A reason for two firing modes for slingers may be a note by Asklepiodotos, problematical as he may be. He wrote in the 1st c. BC, but at least partly seemed to have used older information.

He mentions one order for light troops as in the rear of the heavy troops (hypotaxis; Taktika Kephalaia, VI, 1). He mentions slingers as part of the light troops (I, 2) and says that the light troops sometimes shoot over the lines of heavy troops before them.

[Moros]

Well, I don't know much about the historical use of slingers, but these have been my in game experiences with slingers and other ranged untis:

First of all, in M2TW, as others have said, archers and crossbowmen (but not handgunners) gained the ability to fire over obstacles in an extremely tall arc (pointing their bows or crossbows almost straight up as others have mentioned), something that actually rather does remsemble the "plunging" sling fire supposedly mentioned in the article. I haven't played that game in a while, but I remember this sort of fire being extremely inaccurate and I also recall having a tendency to go out of my way to ensure that my ranged units never fired on the enemy using this method (as to do so would, for the most part, would merely be wasting ammunition). I for one can't see any reason why slinger's couldn't be allowed to have this ability in EB 2, particularly when its impact on gameplay (from what I recall) is minimal.

Back in EB, meanwhile... I've been playing through a Makedon campaign lately and in my main army, two units of Cretians and two units of Spendonetai have been in direct competition almost the entire way throughout the campaign, the interesting thing being that there's almost nothing in it in terms of their effectiveness... Both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to get similar numbers of kills in each battle and three of the four units are on two silver chevrons (one of the Cretian units is on one silver). Additionally, in siege battles, by setting them up along the edge of the deployment area closest to the section of the town's walls I intend to assault with my rams, both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to have absolutely no trouble firing over Tier 2 walls (the bigger wooden ones) from that position... I don't know whether this indicates that slingers are overpowered in EB, but I think it may be something to consider...

In RTW you could mod projectiles and their trajects. So probably the issues could be fixed. As a max angle could be set IIRC. I don't know the details anymore as it's be quite a few years since I modded that.

[bobbin]

Max and min angles can be set, so you can have quite a bit of control over trajectories.

[Moros]

and accuracy,...

[Shigawire]

Interesting read. But I'm not sure I would compare Balearic Slingers with snipers. They were more like precision artillery. They were unique in the world in throwing very heavy rocks, weighing 250 gram. And they were used in large numbers, and were not necessarily carrying shields.

The battle of Agrigento, the battle was going poorly.. until Hanno deployed 1000 balearic slingers. Crushing the greeks' armor. This is no small unit, but a brute force artillery barrage.

[Elthore]

I would like to add a couple of points to this thread from the perspective of a slinger.

Sling bullets could infact pierce tissue if fired properly using the right stone or lead gland. The optimal shape for this is a 'squished egg', compressed so as to not comprimise the longest side and also smaller than a full sized chicken egg. An expert slinger could actually fire this while imparting a rifling spin to ensure that it hits its target with the smallest footprint. Perhaps the size and shape of your thumb, thrust forwards.

As for reasons of disuse, training was one of the main as someone already mentioned. I believe this is also why the crossbow was preferred over the bow, when infact it was an inferior weapon in most ways. Other reason being that they needed more space to operate, you could pack more archers into less space.

As for direct and indirect fire, I believe what has been said is mostly correct but I would like to point out one important thing. The spin that is imparted on the bullet is vital and unavoidable. Indirect fire would most likely be done using an underarm throw with a drop spin, reducing the height of the bullet rapidly throughout its trajectory but also allowing it to be fired at a much higher angle. The direct fire could be done a few ways but almost certainly done overhand, this actually outranges the other throws due to the spins, which can be acending or rifling.

If the EB team has specific questions regarding slings, the fellas at slinging.org are reallife modern day experts with an eye for historical accuracy. =)

[fomalhaut]

I remember learning about the Roman assault on Masada, and how the defenders had only slings to defend themselves with. i always thought, wow how pathetic!, but stuff like this and EB has taught me that slings were a very viable and effective weapon. Interesting how the evolution of projectile weapons have been maximizing ease of use

[Ichon]

Please do you a favour and don't take the cited article too seriously. The two firing modes are mere speculation. Perhaps interesting for a game however.

Not sure I would agree about that... there are only so many ways you can use a sling. There does seem to be fairly good evidence that at least some slingers could outrange some archers. How good the archers bows were is maybe more important than how good the slingers were but I very much doubt it was direct fire slings shooting further than even relatively weak bow.

The rest of what you said- probably right on. Lead bullets maybe puncture skin frequently but I thought most of the argument for the sling bullets was based on blunt force trauma, hence the talk about AP or not. Where an arrow might hit exposed surface and cause damage, a sling hitting even armor unless quite well made and sturdy beneath would pass on more energy to the person wearing the armour while an arrow being much more surface area loses velocity faster etc and causes less blunt damage.