Proposal for slingers

[Ichon]

Please do you a favour and don't take the cited article too seriously. The two firing modes are mere speculation. Perhaps interesting for a game however.

Not sure I would agree about that... there are only so many ways you can use a sling. There does seem to be fairly good evidence that at least some slingers could outrange some archers. How good the archers bows were is maybe more important than how good the slingers were but I very much doubt it was direct fire slings shooting further than even relatively weak bow.

The rest of what you said- probably right on. Lead bullets maybe puncture skin frequently but I thought most of the argument for the sling bullets was based on blunt force trauma, hence the talk about AP or not. Where an arrow might hit exposed surface and cause damage, a sling hitting even armor unless quite well made and sturdy beneath would pass on more energy to the person wearing the armour while an arrow being much more surface area loses velocity faster etc and causes less blunt damage.

[SlickNicaG69]

The advantage of a slinger over an archer during the classical age was in his accuracy, precisely for the reason you gave: that it was usually fired directly (in a straight line) rather than indirectly (in an arch). An arrow could be heavily influenced by the wind or rain, whereas the sling was practically immune from conditions of use.

But as to your suggestion, there was no distinction amongst a unit of slingers besides experience. Yes, different types of slingers were better than others (i.e. Balaeric), but within that group (i.e. Balaeric) there was no distinction between elite and regular that I think you are trying to insinuate at. Even if there was, it is entirely a novel aspect of history that we managed to ascertain it and nothing else, and certainly not enough to warrant an "elite" slinger unit, such as Elite Balearics or Elite Celtic slingers. Slingers were considered elite by their cultural reknown and traditions, such as Balearic and Rhodisian, and because, face it, such peoples style of fighting was geared to that style. You wouldn't expect a Gaul to be as proficient as slinging.

It was the custom of the day, that when a slinger achieved distinction, he was promoted to the weilding of a spear or sword. These ranks, of true soldiers, was the area of distinction of the times.

[Captain Trek]

Well, I don't know much about the historical use of slingers, but these have been my in game experiences with slingers and other ranged untis:

First of all, in M2TW, as others have said, archers and crossbowmen (but not handgunners) gained the ability to fire over obstacles in an extremely tall arc (pointing their bows or crossbows almost straight up as others have mentioned), something that actually rather does remsemble the "plunging" sling fire supposedly mentioned in the article. I haven't played that game in a while, but I remember this sort of fire being extremely inaccurate and I also recall having a tendency to go out of my way to ensure that my ranged units never fired on the enemy using this method (as to do so would, for the most part, would merely be wasting ammunition). I for one can't see any reason why slinger's couldn't be allowed to have this ability in EB 2, particularly when its impact on gameplay (from what I recall) is minimal.

Back in EB, meanwhile... I've been playing through a Makedon campaign lately and in my main army, two units of Cretians and two units of Spendonetai have been in direct competition almost the entire way throughout the campaign, the interesting thing being that there's almost nothing in it in terms of their effectiveness... Both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to get similar numbers of kills in each battle and three of the four units are on two silver chevrons (one of the Cretian units is on one silver). Additionally, in siege battles, by setting them up along the edge of the deployment area closest to the section of the town's walls I intend to assault with my rams, both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to have absolutely no trouble firing over Tier 2 walls (the bigger wooden ones) from that position... I don't know whether this indicates that slingers are overpowered in EB, but I think it may be something to consider...

[vartan]

Additionally, in siege battles, by setting them up along the edge of the deployment area closest to the section of the town's walls I intend to assault with my rams, both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to have absolutely no trouble firing over Tier 2 walls (the bigger wooden ones) from that position... I don't know whether this indicates that slingers are overpowered in EB, but I think it may be something to consider...

Thank you for that. I didn't know it and it's important for me. I'll consider it and keep it in mind.

[geala]

A reason for two firing modes for slingers may be a note by Asklepiodotos, problematical as he may be. He wrote in the 1st c. BC, but at least partly seemed to have used older information.

He mentions one order for light troops as in the rear of the heavy troops (hypotaxis; Taktika Kephalaia, VI, 1). He mentions slingers as part of the light troops (I, 2) and says that the light troops sometimes shoot over the lines of heavy troops before them.

[Moros]

Well, I don't know much about the historical use of slingers, but these have been my in game experiences with slingers and other ranged untis:

First of all, in M2TW, as others have said, archers and crossbowmen (but not handgunners) gained the ability to fire over obstacles in an extremely tall arc (pointing their bows or crossbows almost straight up as others have mentioned), something that actually rather does remsemble the "plunging" sling fire supposedly mentioned in the article. I haven't played that game in a while, but I remember this sort of fire being extremely inaccurate and I also recall having a tendency to go out of my way to ensure that my ranged units never fired on the enemy using this method (as to do so would, for the most part, would merely be wasting ammunition). I for one can't see any reason why slinger's couldn't be allowed to have this ability in EB 2, particularly when its impact on gameplay (from what I recall) is minimal.

Back in EB, meanwhile... I've been playing through a Makedon campaign lately and in my main army, two units of Cretians and two units of Spendonetai have been in direct competition almost the entire way throughout the campaign, the interesting thing being that there's almost nothing in it in terms of their effectiveness... Both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to get similar numbers of kills in each battle and three of the four units are on two silver chevrons (one of the Cretian units is on one silver). Additionally, in siege battles, by setting them up along the edge of the deployment area closest to the section of the town's walls I intend to assault with my rams, both the Cretians and the Spendos seem to have absolutely no trouble firing over Tier 2 walls (the bigger wooden ones) from that position... I don't know whether this indicates that slingers are overpowered in EB, but I think it may be something to consider...

In RTW you could mod projectiles and their trajects. So probably the issues could be fixed. As a max angle could be set IIRC. I don't know the details anymore as it's be quite a few years since I modded that.

[bobbin]

Max and min angles can be set, so you can have quite a bit of control over trajectories.

[Moros]

and accuracy,...

[Trve Leveller]

@Geala:

Please do you a favour and don't take the cited article too seriously. The two firing modes are mere speculation. Perhaps interesting for a game however.

To a degree everything is speculation.
Those two firemodes are physically possible, make sense from a tactical perspective and are described by period sources.

Because a stone is a big projectile.

Slingstones actually arent. Thats why he talks about biconial sling stones. Their shape closer resembles that of almonds than that of a ball.

Do you believe anything shot from a sling could penetrate with 2 footponds (2,72 Joule)?

The 2 footpounds dont refer to the slingstone, thats a general number (although I agree it has to be linked to an area).
The article says, a slingstone has an impact energy of 82 footpounds (111,52 Joule).
So this is completly different from what you concluded from this part.
You concluded its says a round ball can penetrate the human body with 2 fp
when in fact it says a small biconial stone can penetrate human tissue with 82 fps.

Xenophon tells us too that it penetrates and disappears in the tissue. That means in many cases a superficial wound.

Maybe I am misreading your post, but if it disappears in human tissue, how can one conclude that this is a superficial wound?
I am not saying that a sling is a superweapon that goes through human bodies like a hot knife through butter but if a projectile completly disappears in a body, this is more than a scratch.

That the author compares the sling with a .45 ACP pistol is only the peak of painfulness in this article.

I am sceptical about this part as well.

But add armor and shields ...

I agree on shields but not on armor. Most armour of the EB timeframe is flexible and thus blunt damadge will injure or kill an enemy without destroying his armor. And its also quite effective against non flexible armour. The Conquistadors really had a hard time fighting Inca slingers because their stones stunned and injured even those, who wore steel plate armours.

There is a reason that slings were used only on small scales.

Yes there is. It is limited training. Towards history people always moved toward ranged weapons that require less training.
The earliest crossbows were weaker than contemporary bows, but still they replaced them largely. It only takes a week of training to achieve skill with a crossbow, but it takes years to become a good archer. The first handguns were weaker than crannequin arbalests, but still they replaced them because handguns require even less training than crossbows.
It might be a similiar case with the slingshot. It's use requires even more experience than that of the bow and if you are doing it wrong you can easily wound or kill your friends standing around or behind you.


I am not an expert on ballistics or physics, I appreciate your scientific concerns and agree that the sling is no secret super weapon, but I think your critique was too harsh and did this article no justice.


@SlickNicaG69:

and certainly not enough to warrant an "elite" slinger unit, such as Elite Balearics or Elite Celtic slingers

I never talked about Elite Balearics or Elite Celtic slingers. I talked about skilled slingers which can act as sharpshooters (all Balearic slingers, herdsmen from different cultures who have some tradition of slinging) and slingers which are only slingers because they can't afford any other equipment (Accensi). They only get enough training to fire in a rough direction and not to shoot each other. But they have enough skill to project some stones into the sky to create a nasty hail. See the difference?

And because the skilled slingers need direct sight to make use of their skills, they will stand in front of other troops. Thus they will need shields, also they are not poor thus can afford shields and for example different slings for different distances.

I am not saying these slingers are "elite", their skills are a product of they work and daily life, and their military role is a product of their skills.

You wouldn't expect a Gaul to be as proficient as slinging.

Thats true, but gaulish or british herdsmen would come somewhat close to that and definitly be better than british peasants or youths who just use slings because they have nothing else.
Also infact there was a bit of a Celtic slinging culture, just look at the sheer amount of sling projectiles found at Celtic forts.

It was the custom of the day, that when a slinger achieved distinction, he was promoted to the weilding of a spear or sword.

No balearic slinger would be transformed into a full time caetratius.
What you are referring to is younger warriors, which are forced to fight as skirmisher before they can become real warriors.
And those I would put into the Accensi category.

[Leão magno]

This discussion seens to raise again the old discussion of slings effectiveness while the original topic seemed to be about the possibility to use angles with slings units. Seems to me that if they are allowed to fire in higher angles they will become a superpower in terms of MTW2 engine, so, unless someone discovers how to mod the eficiency of angled shots I believe giving slinger this abilities would hurt gameplay... I already find archers too inefective to bother recruiting (at least in the west).

[Shigawire]

Interesting read. But I'm not sure I would compare Balearic Slingers with snipers. They were more like precision artillery. They were unique in the world in throwing very heavy rocks, weighing 250 gram. And they were used in large numbers, and were not necessarily carrying shields.

The battle of Agrigento, the battle was going poorly.. until Hanno deployed 1000 balearic slingers. Crushing the greeks' armor. This is no small unit, but a brute force artillery barrage.

[Elthore]

I would like to add a couple of points to this thread from the perspective of a slinger.

Sling bullets could infact pierce tissue if fired properly using the right stone or lead gland. The optimal shape for this is a 'squished egg', compressed so as to not comprimise the longest side and also smaller than a full sized chicken egg. An expert slinger could actually fire this while imparting a rifling spin to ensure that it hits its target with the smallest footprint. Perhaps the size and shape of your thumb, thrust forwards.

As for reasons of disuse, training was one of the main as someone already mentioned. I believe this is also why the crossbow was preferred over the bow, when infact it was an inferior weapon in most ways. Other reason being that they needed more space to operate, you could pack more archers into less space.

As for direct and indirect fire, I believe what has been said is mostly correct but I would like to point out one important thing. The spin that is imparted on the bullet is vital and unavoidable. Indirect fire would most likely be done using an underarm throw with a drop spin, reducing the height of the bullet rapidly throughout its trajectory but also allowing it to be fired at a much higher angle. The direct fire could be done a few ways but almost certainly done overhand, this actually outranges the other throws due to the spins, which can be acending or rifling.

If the EB team has specific questions regarding slings, the fellas at slinging.org are reallife modern day experts with an eye for historical accuracy. =)

[fomalhaut]

I remember learning about the Roman assault on Masada, and how the defenders had only slings to defend themselves with. i always thought, wow how pathetic!, but stuff like this and EB has taught me that slings were a very viable and effective weapon. Interesting how the evolution of projectile weapons have been maximizing ease of use