Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Ser Clegane]

Can you see us building a church in Lebanon or Tehran?

yeah - unthinkable...

[tibilicus]

It's a hard one to call. As someone from outside the US I want to say there's nothing wrong with it and people can do what they like. If I was from the US however I would probably feel very differently about.

As far as the whole Osama and US funding direct link, I doubt such a link exists. The US however is responsible for much of the mess in the Middle East. We have an Islamic Republic in Iran because the US fermented the desire for such a government, we have a war torn Iraq as the US poured money into the Iraq-Iran war, backing the Iraqis, who they were then forced to attack when their leader went overboard. Afghanistan is also affected by this same blight in the way the US encouraged the Taliban and funded a regime, simply for the purpose of delivering a bloody nose to its enemy, with no respect for the people of Afghanistan.

Of course, all this is just part of the messy picture of the middle-east and the reality is far more complicated than the US simply instigating poor regimes. I don't want to make out the US is wholly responsible for the mess, more they bear a large burden of the responsibility.

[Hax]

There is one thing that puzzles me.

When we have a Cathedral or a Church doing service (apart from being a Catholic place of prayer) as a location for inter-religious dialogue, people will not feel offended in the least. Buddhists in South Korea have very good reasons to feel offended, though.

However, as soon as the word "Islam" falls, people turn sour, the atmosphere drops with lightning speed and we treat it like it's some sort of highly contagious disease, at worst, and a necessary evil at best. Statements like "It's a mockery of the horrible events that happened at 9/11" or "But the terrorists murdered 3,000 people in the name of Islam". Statements like these reveal the way we treat Muslims nowadays. For some people, there is no difference between a crazed Wahabbi from the outskirts of the Rub' al-Khali, or a Sufi mystic from the fringes of the Himalaya, or an Iranian Shi'ite scholar whose parents fled to California when he was four. Likewise, they do not differentiate between the concept of "Islamism", a political ideology spewed forward by backwards lunatics in Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi-Arabia trying to push their political agenda's forward, and the concept of "Islam", a 6th century religion founded by an illiterate shepherd who had never even heard about "The United States" or "Great Britain".

Keep in mind that it is not the religion that changes, but the perspective of the religion that changes. Sometimes resulting in new sects.

What do Osama Bin Laden, Geert Wilders and Fred Phelps have in common? Their point of view on Islam and the Qur'an is exactly the same. Exactly the same. They disregard all verses that condemn violence and laud peace, but focus solely on those verses or hadiths, be they few or many, that allow them to push their agendas forward.

I think we that we're all still human beings and I think that everyone reading these forums doesn't really want anyone to die, right? So let's condemn all extremists, and everyone will be happy!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

However, as soon as the word "Islam" falls, people turn sour, the atmosphere drops with lightning speed and we treat it like it's some sort of highly contagious disease, at worst, and a necessary evil at best. Statements like "It's a mockery of the horrible events that happened at 9/11" or "But the terrorists murdered 3,000 people in the name of Islam". Statements like these reveal the way we treat Muslims nowadays. For some people, there is no difference between a crazed Wahabbi from the outskirts of the Rub' al-Khali, or a Sufi mystic from the fringes of the Himalaya, or an Iranian Shi'ite scholar whose parents fled to California when he was four. Likewise, they do not differentiate between the concept of "Islamism", a political ideology spewed forward by backwards lunatics in Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi-Arabia trying to push their political agenda's forward, and the concept of "Islam", a 6th century religion founded by an illiterate shepherd who had never even heard about "The United States" or "Great Britain".

but hax, you're acting as if everyone who opposes the mosque is an islamaphobe. Every time you hear something like "mosque opposed", you turn sour, the atmosphere drops with lightening speed etc.

[ajaxfetish]

While I always find Jon Stewart amusing and entertaining, you're not honestly submitting his monologue as evidentiary, I hope....

The whole thing with the NASA meatball morphing into the muslim crescent? That was Daily Show video editors, not Fox ones. He disclaims everything as "meant for entertainment purposes only", which is how I choose to allow him to enter debates like these.

Yes, I consider it humor and opinion, not evidence. Personally, whatever the appropriateness of the mosque location may be, I'm glad to live in a free country where Muslims, even though in the minority and not the best liked currently, can go on building their places of worship. I think this kind of thing is a good demonstration that we refuse to be terrorized.

Ajax

[Fragony]

but hax, you're acting as if everyone who opposes the mosque is an islamaphobe. Every time you hear something like "mosque opposed", you turn sour, the atmosphere drops with lightening speed etc.

Could at least not use the thumbscrews lol

[Hax]

but hax, you're acting as if everyone who opposes the mosque is an islamaphobe. Every time you hear something like "mosque opposed", you turn sour, the atmosphere drops with lightening speed etc.

You may have misunderstood. I'm neither supporting nor opposing the construction of that mosque in particular. I just think we shouldn't regard the people opposing that mosque are allied with Osama bin Laden.

[Ser Clegane]

Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire, the proposed date for the grand opening is September 11, 2011.

Will this be the opening or the start of construction (they will certainly have to speed up a bit if they intend to open it by then)?

Either way the date is a bit unfortunate - at least considering the current atmosphere. I it wasn't so tense already the date might actaully be used to send a very clear message along the lines of "look what happened 10 years ago. This is not what we stand for. What happened 10 years ago is against what we believe in. On this day we want to show that we are muslims Americans and that we are part of this city"
Alas, if they ever intended to send such a message, it will probbaly be seen as lip service by many considering how the debate already went.

Too sad - might be a missed opprtunity for all people involved...

[Fragony]

You may have misunderstood. I'm neither supporting nor opposing the construction of that mosque in particular. I just think we shouldn't regard the people opposing that mosque are allied with Osama bin Laden.

Why would anyone even consider any consideration? If they honestly believe, which they don't, that this is a great way to improve relations, don't they get it all wrong

[Hax]

If they honestly believe, which they don't, that this is a great way to improve relations, don't they get it all wrong

This is very important. I don't know if they believe that. You don't either. Marketing is essential.

"Downtown New York Interfaith Dialogue Community Center" sounds less terrorist than "Ground Zero Mosque". Although "DNYIDCC" doesn't roll off the tongue.

[Beskar]

Can you see us building a church in Lebanon or Tehran?

You know Lebanon has a huge and possibly largest Christian population, right..? It is roughly 40% of the population are Christians.

[drone]

Will this be the opening or the start of construction (they will certainly have to speed up a bit if they intend to open it by then)?

My bad on that. Demo and groundbreaking starts later this year. Construction slated to start 9/11/2011.

[Fragony]

This is very important. I don't know if they believe that. You don't either.

Ground zero, 3000 dead. I think I would kinda know.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

My bad on that. Demo and groundbreaking starts later this year. Construction slated to start 9/11/2011.

Ah, so they're waiting 10 years before starting it.

[drone]

Ah, so they're waiting 10 years before starting it.

[Hax]

Ground zero, 3000 dead. I think I would kinda know.

If you possess psychic powers, I know some people who can get you into the business. You do not know their intents. Only they do, really.

[ajaxfetish]

and possibly largest Christian population

I'm having a bit of trouble with this phrase. Are you suggesting that Lebanon has a larger number of Christians than any other country? Or perhaps than any other middle eastern country? Or a larger proportion of Christians than any other country? Or that Lebanon is a majority Christian country with no other religion as well represented within its borders? Or something else entirely?

Ajax

[Beskar]

Largest Christian population in a deemed "Muslim" country as per percentage.

[seireikhaan]

According to CNN, the place is already an islamic worship center. Linky.

There is a prayer site in the building currently, so Muslims are peacefully praying in the building already.

So sounds to me like they want to tear down an old building that was converted into a prayer center and make a nice, big, fancier, more proper version of itself. And its father away from ground zero than mosques already in existence. Call me nonplussed.

[Beskar]

So sounds to me like they want to tear down an old building that was converted into a prayer center and make a nice, big, fancier, more proper version of itself. And its father away from ground zero than mosques already in existence. Call me nonplussed.

It is too much Foxnews knee-jerking from the usual sources. Seriously "They are going to look down upon Groud Zero and praise Allah" nonsense just speaks volumes.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I would think even those who favor this Islamic Center should be able to appreciate why some American feelings are rubbed raw by the idea of a mosque in this particular place. The ashes of 2,700+ innocent people certainly spread that far, and for many it is sacred ground.

On the other hand, our freedom of religion means nothing if it doesn't mean freedom of religion for all. However, I feel that the controversy created by building here would likely be counter-productive to the healing process.

Having the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If you possess psychic powers, I know some people who can get you into the business. You do not know their intents. Only they do, really.

Well, them and their God, but no one's totally sure if it's actually my God. Perspecetive is a powerful thing.

One example from this very case: In Islam Cordoba is a paragon of co-existence and interfaith relationships nearly 1,000 years old. In Christianity it is the capital of a Muslim encrouchment into Western Christendom, which the Spanish in particular would like to wipe from the collective conciousness. There are Muslims who still desire the return of Cordoba to Islam, there are Christians who desire they return of Constantinople to Christendom.

Such is the way of things, neither side is really satisfied with the current liminal situation of the Hagia Sophia, Mosque on Saturday, Church on Sunday.

For this reason, and others, Christianity and Islam will continue to wage spiritual war, the debate between moderates and fanatics is whether the war should spill over into physical violence.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Having the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

My whole political outlook is based on this idea.

I do not think this mosque is a nice idea. Even most people that hate Islam as a religion still realise that the vast majority of Muslims are not fanatics, otherwise they would have detonated themselves by now.

But they still see Islam as the ideology that led to 9/11, and to build a mosque over ground zero is nothing but a pretty shocking display of triumphalism.

That, and the whole 'every religion is peace, our values are all equally right etc' rhetoric makes me die on the inside, it's the only thing more stomach-churning than following modern party politics.

[Don Corleone]

According to CNN, the place is already an islamic worship center. Linky.


So sounds to me like they want to tear down an old building that was converted into a prayer center and make a nice, big, fancier, more proper version of itself. And its father away from ground zero than mosques already in existence. Call me nonplussed.

Show me a mosque closer to Ground Zero, and show me that it was constructed after 9/11/01. Until then, be as dismissive as you want, they weren't your friends that died in there.

[Ice]

Bad taste in my opinion, but if the zoning for it was correct, nothing NYC or anyone can do.

[Beskar]

Show me a mosque closer to Ground Zero, and show me that it was constructed after 9/11/01. Until then, be as dismissive as you want, they weren't your friends that died in there.

As that if that makes a huge difference. If I had family who died there, and there was an inter-faith of tolerance and progression being built nearby, I would think that is a good thing, by helping ensure such a tragedy never happens again.

[Don Corleone]

As that if that makes a huge difference. If I had family who died there, and there was an inter-faith of tolerance and progression being built nearby, I would think that is a good thing, by helping ensure such a tragedy never happens again.

Can you read? There is no inter-faith center... "I" proposed that. They're building a mosque... not an inter-faith center. Try to keep up.

[Beskar]

And I lost a friend & a high-school teammate that day. Don't you dare presume to lecture me on what's appropriate.

I can sprout similar arguments if I wanted, but they are based on nothing. This whole thing is sensationalism, especially the site is 1) Already there, just getting rebuilt. 2) There is a closer site. etc.

[Don Corleone]

I can sprout similar arguments if I wanted, but they are based on nothing. This whole thing is sensationalism, especially the site is 1) Already there, just getting rebuilt. 2) There is a closer site. etc.

Again, where are these oft-cited mosques at Ground Zero?

As for my "arguments based on nothing", this is my friend, Jim Greenleaf. On the morning of September 11th, Jim, a relatively newlywed fellow, went to his job at the World Trade Center, and I guess you can fill in the blanks. I played highschool football with Jim and admired him greatly. His wife, his family and his friends miss him terribly. Now, while you might think its hip and cool to drop the "Get over it" line repeatedly, I personally don't want a memorial to the people that killed him built on his grave.

So, you'll have to forgive me if I don't applaud your cool, snarky routine.

[miotas]

As for my "arguments based on nothing", this is my friend, Jim Greenleaf. On the morning of September 11th, Jim, a relatively newlywed fellow, went to his job at the World Trade Center, and I guess you can fill in the blanks. I played highschool football with Jim and admired him greatly. His wife, his family and his friends miss him terribly. Now, while you might think its hip and cool to drop the "Get over it" line repeatedly, I personally don't want a memorial to the people that killed him built on his grave.

So, you'll have to forgive me if I don't applaud your cool, snarky routine.

Ok then, what right do you have to deny a place of worship and memorial to the families of the muslim victims in the 9/11 attacks?