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Thread: The morale system is kind of off...

  1. #1

    Default The morale system is kind of off...

    Sometimes unit will fight to the last man (not fighting to the last man because they're forced but because they won't rout). The hell...I'm pretty sure being surrounded by both sides and having only 3 units left against 50 would result in a rout. And sometimes the generals are invincible! It gets ridiculous when it takes minutes while you're x3 fast fowarding to take down one general who is COMPLETELY surrounded by 50 men.

  2. #2
    Member Member NoHelmet's Avatar
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    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Welcome!
    Routing mostly occurs after repeated charges by multiple units, not by prolonged combat. As for the general, i agree, he is quite hard to kill, but i think it is hardcoded for generals to be unrealisticaly hard to get killed. In reality, generals rarely got killed on the battlefield, but AI does not know that, and plunges its leader into the thick of battle, so it had to be compensated in some way, IMHO. But, you should wait for some of the really experienced members for this to be confirmed as true or not...
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  3. #3

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Last time playing Sweboz i┤ve counted, just for fun, how high the morale bonus of my faction leader on my troops would be, and without taking in account his "seen the elephant trait", i┤ve come to +9 morale, also not taking in account his command stars, or the presence of "inspiring" units etc. So, take a levy spearmen with a morale of, say, 9 and add another 9 to it, and you will see, the unit becomes elite. And i am talking about medium battle difficulty, with no additional bonuses for the AI besides from traits of AI generals.
    I think, EB team wanted you to get a tough, and a realistic, experience: you can kill the general asap, and the AI army will loose "the head" and rout quite fast, or you can have a challenge by leaving letting him get killed randomly. Btw: the best way to kill enemy general is to charge him with heavy cavalry, an elephant unit, or run some chariots through his unit a couple of time - all this units got "armour piercing" weapons and launching damage in case of eles and chariots.
    But in any case: if you manage to cause significant causalities on an enemy unit within a short time by well timed charges ( or missile fire in their backs ), while they are - tired, concerned over exposed flanks, unhappy to see comrades routing, or, in the best case, are weaving, you can rout any unit, even spartans or other elites.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Generals have multiple hitpoints. You have to effectively kill them several times. Some of them are a lot tougher than others though it depends on traits. Especially tough generals do take a long time to kill its true, but they shouldnt be able to do too much damage while you wait.

    And yeah, morale can be unrealistic. But think of it another way, if you were a group of 3 against 50 - and totally surrounded - would you blindly run through the enemy, dropping your shield and with no hope of survival or stand like a true warrior back to back with your fellows and fight to the death...?

    If you want to break a unit, charge it in the rear, unleash a volley of javelins from the rear or start stacking fear inducing effects like flaming arrows or naked spearmen. It is the speed at which troops die that adds to the possibility of a rout not the total number left.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    And yeah, morale can be unrealistic. But think of it another way, if you were a group of 3 against 50 - and totally surrounded - would you blindly run through the enemy, dropping your shield and with no hope of survival or stand like a true warrior back to back with your fellows and fight to the death...?
    A completely surrounded unit whose morale breaks will fight to the death anyway. An interesting thing about that mechanic is that a unit that is at broken morale and "fighting to the death" is massively worse in combat... I've it happen numerous times where an elite unit such as Argyraspides is surrounded by my units and breaks, they then proceed to get rapidly and efficiently slaughtered even though they are technically still fighting, well able to lose the remaining half of their number in 20 seconds where it took several minutes for my levies and other crappy units to whittle down the first half... For this reason, I generally find it uneccessary to heavily disrupt my units by trying to create a breach for them to rout through, as simply letting them fight to the death results in a quicker and more efficient finishing off of the unit (even if I do take a few extra casulaties, casulaties I probably would take anyway while trying to create a breach for the routers).

  6. #6
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Generals do get multiple hitpoints, but this is mostly the result of a hidden EB trait that beefs up A.I. generals. This because the A.I. is rather careless with them.

    And yes, the morale system is unrealistic: in reality armies would not be annihilated like happens in EB, but break far earlier. However, although the morale of individual units can be changed, the TW morale system cannot be rebalanced and in any case is rather simple. Basically, the current system is the best compromise the team could find.

    BTW, welcome to the .Org and to EB, chainedoj.
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Trek View Post
    A completely surrounded unit whose morale breaks will fight to the death anyway. An interesting thing about that mechanic is that a unit that is at broken morale and "fighting to the death" is massively worse in combat... I've it happen numerous times where an elite unit such as Argyraspides is surrounded by my units and breaks, they then proceed to get rapidly and efficiently slaughtered even though they are technically still fighting, well able to lose the remaining half of their number in 20 seconds where it took several minutes for my levies and other crappy units to whittle down the first half... For this reason, I generally find it uneccessary to heavily disrupt my units by trying to create a breach for them to rout through, as simply letting them fight to the death results in a quicker and more efficient finishing off of the unit (even if I do take a few extra casulaties, casulaties I probably would take anyway while trying to create a breach for the routers).
    that was the effect of EB's low lethality attacks, actually (at least quite observable in M2TW), units who fight to the death kills enemy faster, but die faster as well, looks like they gain some attack bonus but massive defense penalty

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  8. #8

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    Generals do get multiple hitpoints, but this is mostly the result of a hidden EB trait that beefs up A.I. generals.
    Not in EB 1.2. In earlier versions that was the case, but I looked up the trait-file and the Hitpoint bonus of the EB-AI-General-Bonus-Trait gets ignored because a ; (how you call that in english?) stands before the "Effect Hitpoints". But maybe the AI gains a lot of hitpoint-traits because of the auto-resolve battles since they seem to be harder to kill then player controlled generals, I don't know.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    And yes, the morale system is unrealistic: in reality armies would not be annihilated like happens in EB, but break far earlier. However, although the morale of individual units can be changed, the TW morale system cannot be rebalanced and in any case is rather simple. Basically, the current system is the best compromise the team could find.
    Not to mention that the TW morale system is an individualised morale system, not one of armies. That is, there is no army-wide morale, but rather individual morale values for each unit which in turn are affected by the relative morale values of neighbouring units. I don't know what's better, this system, an army-wide one, or a hybrid. What do you think?
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  10. #10

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    that was the effect of EB's low lethality attacks, actually (at least quite observable in M2TW), units who fight to the death kills enemy faster, but die faster as well, looks like they gain some attack bonus but massive defense penalty
    Hmm, really? I don't remember that, I'll have to check...

    Not to mention that the TW morale system is an individualised morale system, not one of armies. That is, there is no army-wide morale, but rather individual morale values for each unit which in turn are affected by the relative morale values of neighbouring units. I don't know what's better, this system, an army-wide one, or a hybrid. What do you think?
    Isn't the current system aready in a way a hybrid? The whole army is affected by the general's morale-related traits as well as death of the general and units can also become "dismayed at the loss of the battle", which makes it easier to rout any stragglers after most of an enemy army has been defeated.
    Last edited by Captain Trek; 09-26-2010 at 08:38.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Trek View Post
    Isn't the current system aready in a way a hybrid? The whole army is affected by the general's morale-related traits as well as death of the general and units can also become "dismayed at the loss of the battle", which makes it easier to rout any stragglers after most of an enemy army has been defeated.
    Indeed, but if I'm not mistaken, the largest part of the morale system consists of the individualised unit morale. I'm sure there is always room for improvement. But I can see how the individualised morale would weigh more than the overall morale as companies of men cannot see what an eagle can.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    When we talk about morale..is there any differences betwen factions?Or betwen unit and their mercenary version?Because mercenary phalanx in hands of Romani player show more morale and will to fight then my baktrian Pezhetaroi.Seriously they was attacked by 1 and 1/2 of postmarian cohort and route (it was nearly in full numbers) while mercenary phalanx hold their ground against 4 units of thorakitai,was totally surounded,no general or first cohort near and dont route until their number was under 60.I understand when i cant route cheater company cohort even with 600 cats,its totally normal and we have tools how to deal with cheaters in our community,these tools force them to use mercenaries,but if they are more powerfull then their regular version....

  13. #13
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    Indeed, but if I'm not mistaken, the largest part of the morale system consists of the individualised unit morale. I'm sure there is always room for improvement. But I can see how the individualised morale would weigh more than the overall morale as companies of men cannot see what an eagle can.
    Yes, there is no "army morale", only modifiers from the commanding general's traits (but IIRC there is an in-battle penalty when an army loses a certain percentage of men). I don't quite see the advantages of using "army morale", though.

    What I mean is that units have only two "states": they obey or they rout. The system could be made more realistic by using unit A.I. that, depending on the unit's morale, results in behaviour ranging from (over)enthusiastic attacks, cautious advance, refusing to move or backing away, to unordered withdrawal and finally a full rout.

    Obviously this is impossible in the R:TW engine, and in any case most TW gamers would think it too hard-core. The TW series main USP is that it makes large-scale historical battles accessible.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    What I mean is that units have only two "states": they obey or they rout. The system could be made more realistic by using unit A.I. that, depending on the unit's morale, results in behaviour ranging from (over)enthusiastic attacks, cautious advance, refusing to move or backing away, to unordered withdrawal and finally a full rout.

    Obviously this is impossible in the R:TW engine, and in any case most TW gamers would think it too hard-core. The TW series main USP is that it makes large-scale historical battles accessible.
    Would it be a disadvantage, therefore, to actually implement such a system? (Not referring to TW, but any such game in general.)
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  15. #15

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    considering that many people(including myself) hate it when their units do stupid stuff or generally interpret your commands quite creatively and get slaugtered because of it, having units refuse orders on purpose would probably freak most gamers even more ^^
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  16. #16
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    Would it be a disadvantage, therefore, to actually implement such a system? (Not referring to TW, but any such game in general.)
    Yes, if you want to reach the main-stream market. Most people play games for entertainment. They want a challenge, but the game should be fairly easy to use. Ultra-realistic battlefield simulators are niche games. I admire Mad Minute Games and the Lordz Game Studio (who used to be a TW modding team!) for their dedication, but on most days I prefer TW.

    In any case: CA needs to improve their general A.I. before starting to fiddle with unit A.I.
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  17. #17
    Member Member seienchin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    that was the effect of EB's low lethality attacks, actually (at least quite observable in M2TW), units who fight to the death kills enemy faster, but die faster as well, looks like they gain some attack bonus but massive defense penalty
    You sure about that?
    In Rome and my MWII Units fighting to the death just die like flies. Also this thread is not about units who are "fighting to the death" in Game mechanical sense than rather about units who refuse to flee.

    Anyway, if units in EB dont rout than just use your medival style lancers. EB has plenty of them. Atacking a unit in the back let most units flee quickly.
    HOWEVER
    A battle in the wood in EB is A PAIN in the ... Behind. ;)
    Too huge trees to see anything, cavallery and missiles useless, pathfinding problems, AI units never rout, some rout instantly and the AI army never manages to atack as a whole. The result beeing you chasing down single units in the woods for half an hour.^^

  18. #18

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    Yes, if you want to reach the main-stream market. Most people play games for entertainment. They want a challenge, but the game should be fairly easy to use. Ultra-realistic battlefield simulators are niche games. I admire Mad Minute Games and the Lordz Game Studio (who used to be a TW modding team!) for their dedication, but on most days I prefer TW.

    In any case: CA needs to improve their general A.I. before starting to fiddle with unit A.I.
    Agreed.

    Could you elaborate please? What do you mean by general AI? Are you referring to actual general's units of the AI factions? Or do you mean to refer to the campaign map AI? Because there are the campaign map and battle engine AIs, one AI for each of the two modes of gameplay in the TW system.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    Agreed.

    Could you elaborate please? What do you mean by general AI? Are you referring to actual general's units of the AI factions? Or do you mean to refer to the campaign map AI? Because there are the campaign map and battle engine AIs, one AI for each of the two modes of gameplay in the TW system.
    I suppose he is referring to the AI generally used to control an army in battle (flanking, using hills, not remaining still in a shower of arrows etc.), as opposed to an AI especially to determine what one unit would do in which situation.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by seienchin View Post
    You sure about that?
    In Rome and my MWII Units fighting to the death just die like flies. Also this thread is not about units who are "fighting to the death" in Game mechanical sense than rather about units who refuse to flee.
    try Vanilla Crussader campaign in Kingdoms... surround a muslim spear militia with dismounted knights, and watch they do some damage when they are fighting to the death, but almost no damage dealed when they are not fighting to the death...
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  21. #21
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: The morale system is kind of off...

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    Could you elaborate please? What do you mean by general AI? Are you referring to actual general's units of the AI factions?
    I meant to write "general's A.I.", as in battle A.I. Improved strategic A.I. would be good too, but we're talking about the battles here.
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