HoreTore - an innocent victim of religious persecution. Call amnesty now!!

[HoreTore]

Hello everyone.

My name is HoreTore, and I live in a country known as Norway. It is a cold and bitter place right now, I am forced to wear wollen socks with my shorts...

But it's also a country of fiery religious persecution.


Yesterday, I watched my beloved Mjøndalen IF conclude a season that started out disappointing, but we managed to save our place in the end with a string of very strong wins... I paid 165 NOK for my ticket; and that's when it hit me:

My club will have to pay taxes on this, while those who got their priorities wrong and went to church instead got a tax cut!!

How on earth can this atrocity possibly be justified? How is this not an obvious example of discrimination? Where is the ECHR? Yes yes, I know what you're going to say: "you don't pay money to go to a church!", "churches are non-profit organizations!" and "relgion does a lot of good things in its community!". And I of course have the rebuttals ready. First of all, yes, you pay for a church service. Churches live in donations, and the more donations you get, the more/the nbetter/the nicer church service you get in return. Donate x dollars to your church, and you get x amount of religous stuff in return. That's exactly the same as paying for a ticket, you just call it something else. When I pay my ticket, I do it so that I can see football. The more tickets they sell, the better football I get to see. Exactly the same. Secondly, the non-profit thing: this is an easy one, have you ever seen a football club with a profit? Neither have I. There are no owners profiting from the revenue generated by the money I pay for my tickets, in fact, Mjøndalen IF doesn't have any owners at all, they are "owned" by the members of the club. But what about the players then? They make a lot of money! Well... Have you seen the clergy lately? They're not exactly the poorest chaps around.... You could probably buy Sweden with the gold and other valuables in the Vatican. So, that brings us to our final point: religion contributes to its community. Yes, they do. But so does a football club. Hundreds of kids from the age of 6 to 16 learn respect, cooperation and team spirits from playing football, as well as the obvious health benefits. Football provides a community with a sense of shared purpose, pride and knits us all tighter together. You can't walk up and start talking with a complete stranger these days. But if he wears the same team colours as you do, you can. Sure, there are problems with hooligans and such. But honestly, that pales in comparison to the crusades, inquisition, thirty years war and 9/11.....


Support equal rights and end discrimination:

TAX JESUS!

[drone]

My religion got relegated a few years back. It's no fun in the second division, but hopefully we can pass the Zoroastrians and Wiccans and get back to the top flight.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, like so many states run by petrodollars you are governed by heriditary princes and a state religion. Deal with it. Living standars are too high to make revolution.
Are your women allowed to drive cars yet? Must they wear a veil?


Meanwhile, the ECHR has indeed ruled against forced religious education in Norway, three years ago: FOLGERØ AND OTHERS v. NORWAY, 29 June 2007, no. 15472/02.



I say stop slaughtering whales, pay taxes to Brussels like a good boy, stop buying up Europe for your national trust fund, and then Europe will see how we can bring freedom to your shores and fjords.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I thought socialists liked to pay taxes.

[Beskar]

I thought it was something to do with the 100k per week footballers wages for kicking a ball around the pitch?

Don't worry, while England's poor might be on the streets, we still find the money for Wayne Looney.

[HoreTore]

Ah, yes religion in schools.... The wonderous new course "noone could object to" because it is so "fair and balanced". Hah!! I teach the seventh grade in religion from time to time as a substitute, and their textbook has 10-15 pages on islam, buddhism, judaism and hinduism, 20 pages about humanism and ethics, and a whooping 80 pages about christianity, inckuding indepth analysis of parts of the bible....

Blanaced? Hah! My behind.

You sure that foreign legion of yours isn't available for some invading, Louis?

But hopefully we'll never stop whaling and clubbing baby seals. And I mean that in all seriousness. Everything but humans are food, and both whale and seal tastes delicious. Seals also make excellent clothing. And to top it off, they're both sustainable resources with no danger of extinction. Go whalers!!

[Louis VI the Fat]

I teach the seventh grade in religion from time to time as a substitute

They employ you as a religion teacher...?


Next they'll organise cultural sensitivity training by Fragony and a course 'flower arrangement to poetry readings' by Dave.

[Beskar]

They employ you as a religion teacher...?


Next they'll organise cultural sensitivity training by Fragony and a course 'flower arrangement to poetry readings' by Dave.

Don't forget the Sex Education classes by Prussian Iron

[Louis VI the Fat]

...or economy 101 by Beskar.

[Beskar]

...or economy 101 by Beskar.

Nothing wrong with my economics. Any objections to my economics have only been opposed on political grounds and not economic validity.

(Though, I was joking going to say "History 101" by Louis in my original, but I decided against it. I wish I wrote it in now, I was too nice, plus I agree a lot with you anyway on many points.)

[Louis VI the Fat]

I was jokingly going to say "History 101" by Louis in my original, but I decided against it. I wish I wrote it in now, I was too nice

Nice guys finish last. Now you're going to have to spend days waiting for some thread somehwere where you can get even with a zinger, while I can devote my energy to chatting up your girlfriend. Then I'll marry her and have ballistic sex every night. So I arrive at work perfectly relaxed and can concentrate on work. Meanwhile you have to spend your nights in a frutrating search for a new girlfriend. Your work will suffer because of it. As a result, I get the promotion you were in the running for. This promotion means I get placed abroad where I gain crucial foreign experience. When I return I'll be so far ahead of you they'll make me your boss. I then have lots of interesting text and lots of monmey, so all your friends turn out to want to be friends with me.

You die lonely and miserably.




Edit: I did doubt between naming you or Crazed Rabbit. That's because I can't remember whether I'm left or right leaning anymore. Maybe both. I'm getting schizophrenic.

Or maybe you are both wrong.


Yeah.

That's it. You're both wrong. Left and right. Mad, the two of them. The entire world is mad. Except for me. Not me. I'm normal, sane. I'm only going to talk to myself from now on. We are much better conversation on our own anyway. Besides, my precious gets easily jealous, she doesn't like me talking to other people anyway.

I'm leaving this place. It's just going to be us and our precious from now on. All you people are mad.

[Husar]

Ah, yes religion in schools.... The wonderous new course "noone could object to" because it is so "fair and balanced". Hah!! I teach the seventh grade in religion from time to time as a substitute, and their textbook has 10-15 pages on islam, buddhism, judaism and hinduism, 20 pages about humanism and ethics, and a whooping 80 pages about christianity, inckuding indepth analysis of parts of the bible....

Blanaced? Hah! My behind.

Yeah, and what's wrong about learning about the foundations of your country, your ethics and your culture? Of course it's missing paganism but of the 80 pages on the bible are actually relevant for the others, too. Firstly half the bible is about judaism, secondly Islam does not disregard the bible either, it's one of their religious books if I'm not entirely mistaken, thirdly buddhism should have no problem with learning about Christianity, surely a buddhist should be interested to find out why Norway is the way it is.
It's also weird that you want all religions represented the same without mentioning that you'd rather have people learn none of it and be taught about atheism instead.

[Fragony]

Rediculous that religion is teached in public schools in a non-historical context. If my kids had to read bible or qu'ran-texts I would sue them to hell and surroundings.

[Hax]

thirdly buddhism should have no problem with learning about Christianity, surely a buddhist should be interested to find out why Norway is the way it is.

Supposedly, yes. Of course.


Also, next up: Why Islam is a danger to everyone. By me, of course.

[Fragony]

There is a study called theology, most universities have it. It helps if the SCHOOL taught you various languages so you can read the required texts. For a beta study it helps if the SCHOOL taught you the basics of chemistry, physics and math. Disgusting that in a modern country like Norway they feel the need to educate on religion I'm amazed. Yes Horetore you have the right to be severely pissed of by this 'nobody can have a problem with this' skull-rape crap. Geez.

[rory_20_uk]

I agree that religions should be addressed in terms of Theology, and not as my teacher insisted as saying "this is what happened". I usually ended the lesson either ejected from the classroom or in detention because I argued with his literalist views.

[Fragony]

Heh getting ejected from classes was a bit of a daily routine for me, fun part about it was that the principal really liked me, he couldn't stop laughing when I gave my deeply religious teacher a 'my first stigmata-kit' (four nails, a hammer & barbed wire for some reason he knew it was me) for Sinterklaas. One day he presented the choice between detetion and kick on the butt, when I chosed the latter he informed me that he never said he was the one giving it, enter my 2.10 ex-boxing teacher in French. Ouch. Fun times.

edit ROFL at this promotional video for the university of Neimegen Dutch not all that required https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-SD...eature=related

[HoreTore]

They employ you as a religion teacher...?

I'll let you know that I got the grade "5" in religion back in school, on a scale going from 1-6, and nobody in my class got a higher grade
It isn't one of my principal subjects though, hence I rarely teach in it.

Anyway, could we switch back to the original topic, boys? Let's discuss taxing religion! The state church has nothing to do with this though, the US doesn't have one, but still they give tax breaks for those who wish to buy religion, while they penalize those who instead wish to spend their money on sports or whatever else.

Is somebody capable of explaining why this isn't a gross example of religious discrimination that should be outlawed instantly?

[rory_20_uk]

I'm happy to see all religions taxed, unless they can show the same criteria to reach charitable status as other charities do.

[Ronin]

I know your pain HoreTore....I face the same conundrum with the money I spend at my local strip club.

[Fragony]

I know your pain HoreTore....I face the same conundrum with the money I spend at my local strip club.

We call them boobs here, well 'tieten' in Dutch but you gettit (getting it LOL)

[Rhyfelwyr]

There is a study called theology, most universities have it. It helps if the SCHOOL taught you various languages so you can read the required texts. For a beta study it helps if the SCHOOL taught you the basics of chemistry, physics and math. Disgusting that in a modern country like Norway they feel the need to educate on religion I'm amazed. Yes Horetore you have the right to be severely pissed of by this 'nobody can have a problem with this' skull-rape crap. Geez.

What sort of ethics/morals would you be happy with them to teach your children? Why can't they teach Christian values, but they can teach modern social values? How is that any less a case of skull-rape?

Whatever they teach some people will be unhappy. Schools can put quite a nationalistic/patriotic view on things, which will upset hippy parents. Yet they also tend to be quite lala-hippy values themseves (can I please have a textbook where 90% of the charactesr aren't called Mohammed or Yolanda or something) which will upset people.

How can they be completely impartial?

[Fragony]

If a school teaches nationalist or patrioc views they should be closed on the spot, they should stay way clear of that. There is more than enough time for orientation on just about everyting, helping them to think is not their job, they should just provide the basic skills as best as possible and provide a safe environment.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If a school teaches nationalist or patrioc views they should be closed on the spot, they should stay way clear of that. There is more than enough time for orientation on just about everyting, helping them to think is not their job, they should just provide the basic skills as best as possible and provide a safe environment.

But isn't part of the point of school to teach kids basic values so they can function in society? If so, what values do you go with?

Even the most basic things could upset someone. What about how schoolchidren are taught to respect each other and that people are good? Maybe that conflicts with the Calvinist belief in total depravity, that might upset some Netherlanders. Or me. How dare a school indoctrinate my children!

[HoreTore]

But isn't part of the point of school to teach kids basic values so they can function in society? If so, what values do you go with?

Even the most basic things could upset someone. What about how schoolchidren are taught to respect each other and that people are good? Maybe that conflicts with the Calvinist belief in total depravity, that might upset some Netherlanders. Or me. How dare a school indoctrinate my children!

People don't go to school to be learned things, they go to school to learn how they can figure that out for themselves.

As for basic respect and such, that's something I believe parents are perfectly capable of teaching their offspring, I don't see why that should be my job.

[Fragony]

But isn't part of the point of school to teach kids basic values so they can function in society? If so, what values do you go with?

Even the most basic things could upset someone. What about how schoolchidren are taught to respect each other and that people are good? Maybe that conflicts with the Calvinist belief in total depravity, that might upset some Netherlanders. Or me. How dare a school indoctrinate my children!

Isn't that the parent's responsibility? Not the school's job. I already know that I'm going to give my kids a good slap around the ears when they deserve it, and I'll advice them to bring an end of wood to a fight, doubt the school agrees but it ain't their business.

edit: it's scary how often we agree HT

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well part of school is also to teach a kid that it can't always get its way in a slightly more persistent fashion than parents can. Requiring co-operation, school rules and such like. At some point some value loaded statements, aka morals are going to slip into that mix.

Anyway back to the point at hand: if a church can show itself to be a charity why should it be treated from any other charity? If it can't, then donations should not be tax deductible nor should that church be exempt from various other taxes.

[HoreTore]

Well part of school is also to teach a kid that it can't always get its way in a slightly more persistent fashion than parents can. Requiring co-operation, school rules and such like. At some point some value loaded statements, aka morals are going to slip into that mix.

No. I still do not have to teach them "in a more persistant fashion", you're confusing that with something else, which is having rules for how we behave at school. At school, everyone is required to follow the rules of the school, and in the classroom, I am 100% in charge and the rules I make are the rules that apply(actually I make them together with the students, but that's another discussion). How they feel they can behave, how their parents want them to behave, how they feel they should behave in life elsewhere, none of that is any of my concern. I care about what happens inside my classroom, and inside my classroom no other rules apply. Do I care whether they follow my rules in other parts of their lives? Nope, don't care at all. All I care about is when they're in my custody, they live by my rules.

If Frags wishes to be violent for example, he is free to do so, except when he's in my care.

Anyway back to the point at hand: if a church can show itself to be a charity why should it be treated from any other charity? If it can't, then donations should not be tax deductible nor should that church be exempt from various other taxes.

How can they ever be treated as a charity? If Shell opens up a division that runs a free hospital in Africa or whatever, will that excempt them from taxation?

[Tellos Athenaios]

No. I still do not have to teach them "in a more persistant fashion", you're confusing that with something else, which is having rules for how we behave at school. At school, everyone is required to follow the rules of the school, and in the classroom, I am 100% in charge and the rules I make are the rules that apply(actually I make them together with the students, but that's another discussion). How they feel they can behave, how their parents want them to behave, how they feel they should behave in life elsewhere, none of that is any of my concern. I care about what happens inside my classroom, and inside my classroom no other rules apply. Do I care whether they follow my rules in other parts of their lives? Nope, don't care at all. All I care about is when they're in my custody, they live by my rules.

I'm fairly confident you require some written work to be handed in at some times, or require some sort of group assignments where students don't get the option of doing stuff on their own but have to work with someone else too. But I doubt you do either just because you feel like it.

How can they ever be treated as a charity? If Shell opens up a division that runs a free hospital in Africa or whatever, will that excempt them from taxation?

Not quite. But if local dance troupes/museums can qualify why not a church?

[HoreTore]

I'm fairly confident you require some written work to be handed in at some times, or require some sort of group assignments where students don't get the option of doing stuff on their own but have to work with someone else too. But I doubt you do either just because you feel like it.

......I don't understand what you're getting at....

Of course my students work in groups, they do that all the time, and the rules they live by then are the same as any other time they are at school: my rules. But whether they will follow those rules at other times in their lives are completely irrelevant to me, that's their parents job.

Not quite. But if local dance troupes/museums can qualify why not a church?

I see no reason why a "local dance troupe" should ever qualify, and at least here they don't. Culture is taxed same as everything else. It's just the religious ones who get away.

A church usually does some charity as well, but why they shouldn't have to pay taxes on the funds they use on upkeep of their buildings, for example, because they hand out some food to the poor simply doesn't make sense.

Not any more sense than letting Shell off the hook if they too hand out some food to the poor.