Community colleges?

[TinCow]

That is my point exactly TC, a degree in History CANNOT make you an expert in a certain subject of History, and it isn't supposed to! It is supposed to train you in the Historical method used by scholars to analyze history. You will not become an expert in a field (no matter how long you are in school) unless you devote years toward a serious, private, and intense study of it. A History degree is simply supposed to give you your spade, and then you are supposed to do the digging (wherever you choose). Why then do they bother with the BS content courses where you never learn about the important scholarship of a subject, really if ever consult primary sources, where debate is discouraged, and where you learn nothing of importance, save the opinions of your professor? Listening to a lecture and being expected to take it at face value (in fact, being penalized on exams if your interpretation of something differs from what the professor said in her lecture) should not be the majority of a higher-education program...like it unfortunately is. In most of my classes the research paper (which you are often expected to write using only sources from a source book that your professor gives you...even if you have access to other and better sources for your subject) is never more than 20% of my grade! It should be at least 75%! Research is what a historian is expected to do...not sit in lectures and be tested on how well he can repeat his professor's opinions!

I think this is an accurate description of the situation, but I also think that it applies to all areas of undergraduate education, not just History. There is no serious research and no serious production in any undergraduate degree, whether it be Physics, Mathematics, Philosophy, Art, Dance, or Iguana Baiting. Frankly, undergraduates are too immature and have too little knowledge to be able to do serious research and analysis, or to produce a significant work-product. By far the most enjoyable and educational part of my History major was writing my thesis. I spent three months doing full-time original research and wrote a 130+ page paper about my topic based entirely on that research. When I wrote it, I thought my knowledge and analysis was pretty impressive, that I had accomplished something significant, and that I was, in short, hot . Looking back on it, the thesis is impressive as an undergraduate work, but it's kind of pathetic in comparison to any serious academic work. Even my high level of effort and commitment didn't come close to approaching anything that would be useful to the academic community.

Honestly, I don't know how you expect to be able to accomplish real original research as part of an undergraduate degree. That requires a level of time commitment equivalent to a full time job, and you would have no room for other studies of any kind. It would be impossible for you to do the amount of research required for just one serious paper in the span of a single semester for even a single class. Beginning to end, I worked on my thesis for a year and a half. You can't expect someone to produce work at that level every semester for every class.

Again, I think you're missing the point of the undergraduate education. You feel like you should be doing real work which is significant to the world, and gaining real knowledge which has hard, practical applications to life after graduation. I can sympathize with this feeling, as I felt that way as well. Take my word for it though, that feeling is unrealistic, and it's not what undergraduate education is intended to do. You think that because you're in college, you're mature, skilled, and worthy of serious responsibilities. Trust me, you're still very, very young and you have very little useful knowledge. The older you get, the more you realize that you didn't know even a couple years ago, let alone when you were 19 or 20. Personally, I think anyone under the age of 30 doesn't know about anything, they just think they do, and I'm only 32. Older people told me the same thing when I was younger, and I thought they were full of it. They're not, trust me, it's the truth.

Undergraduate education is supposed to give you the most basic knowledge required to qualify at the entrance level for the workforce, and teach you the life skills you will need to succeed in that workforce. Actual practical knowledge is imparted in other forms of education, namely Associate's and Technical degrees for low-level skilled labor, and Graduate degrees for high-level skilled labor. Even then, those degrees are still only giving you the bare-minimum knowledge required to qualify; they're not teaching you to be an expert in anything. You are correct that a four year degree does not make a Historian. However, a four year degree doesn't make you a Mathematician, an Engineer, a Dancer, a Chemist, a Politician, or a Philosopher. A four year degree makes you a college graduate, nothing more. Frankly, that's the same for all degrees. A JD doesn't make you a lawyer, an MD doesn't make you a Doctor, an MBA doesn't make you a businessman, and a PhD in History doesn't make you a Historian. The degrees qualify you for those titles, but whether you become them is a totally separate issue.

It sounds to me like what you need to do is figure out your goal in life. The wonderful thing about college is that you have the time to sit back and ponder that question. You need to identify where you want to be 10 years from now; decide exactly what you want to be doing with your life. You then need to position yourself so that your qualifications coming out of undergraduate will maximize your potential to end up where you want to go.

Also, and this is a point which I cannot stress highly enough, you need to enjoy yourself. You will only experience the level of freedom you currently have this once; you'll never get it back. Life after undergraduate is fun as well, but it's a different kind of fun. You will never again be able to live a life without real responsibilities. Don't let the experience pass you by.

[Yaropolk]

I agree with Yaropolk, but I dont think his statement about 4 year state schools

CONS: Not recognized by employers nationally

is all that accurate. I mean, if that was true, then people would be sticking to the same place they graduated college forever, which isnt true. I think for some jobs thats true, but I think for most its not.

By that I meant that inside your local region, employers will be well aware of the state school and you can get a leg up on out-of-region competition. However if you apply for a job on the other coast, chances are the employer has never heard of your school and it won't make a difference if you went to your local state U or a private school.

After your first job, your university matters even less, it's all about experience.

[Strike For The South]

Wisdom and knoweledge.

What if my goal is to have sex with all the education majors in my history classes and all the bright eyed women in my Poly sci classes who think they are going to be the next big thing in politics?

AM I LEARNING SKILLZ

[Megas Methuselah]

I have taken upper-level history courses in Europe, and was majorly unimpressed. They were ALL content! There was no required research...just lectures and essay exams.

Yeah, I'm taking upper-level history courses right now. What you describe doesn't apply to what I experienced. Sucks to be American, huh?

In most of my classes the research paper (which you are often expected to write using only sources from a source book that your professor gives you...even if you have access to other and better sources for your subject) is never more than 20% of my grade! It should be at least 75%!

Ok, now that's just strange. In first year classes, papers were worth about 30-40 percent. But the higher you go, the more they become. In my current class, I think the paper's worth about 60% of the grade or something. Moreover, my exams aren't true/false or short-answer, trivia questions. They are essays. Last exam, we were given the topic a couple days in advance; from that, I picked my own argument and view, researched the evidence to back it up, remembered as much as I could, then wrote my essay in-class. Sure, the professor's viewpoint might influence your own, but you have the freedom to argue for whatever you want to argue.

So, why is your educational system so inferior to mine?

AM I LEARNING SKILLZ

Hellz yeah, esé!

[TinCow]

What if my goal is to have sex with all the education majors in my history classes and all the bright eyed women in my Poly sci classes who think they are going to be the next big thing in politics?

AM I LEARNING SKILLZ

Not only is that a worthy goal, it will indeed have practical applications after you graduate (unless you're in a small subsection of theology majors). I think your signature applies particularly well in this scenario.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I agree with you that the best education a person gets in a History major are the classes which teach you how to interpret history. Those were not the most interesting classes I took, but they certainly had the longest-lasting impact on me. As for the rest being a "big waste of time," your education is exactly what you make of it. Majoring in history will not make you an expert in history, but frankly you won't be an expert in anything with just a BA or a BS. Yes, it's easier to get a job with a BS in math or engineering these days than a BA in a social science, but that has to do with the job market, not the nature of the education itself. You'll realize very soon after you start working that you know relatively little about the actual subject. Nearly all knowledge is gained by practical on-the-job experience, not undergrad schooling. Undergrad exists to sort out those who are most likely to excel in the workforce from those who are not. It's about learning the basics of adult life, responsibility, and the process of learning itself. The actual content of the courses themselves is of secondary importance to the lesson of learning themselves.

What exactly was your goal in majoring in History? What do you want to do in life? If your career objectives have nothing to do with the benefits accorded by a social sciences degree, you should seriously consider changing majors.

In the end, if you can't get a Historian job making money, it makes no difference.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ok, now that's just strange. In first year classes, papers were worth about 30-40 percent. But the higher you go, the more they become. In my current class, I think the paper's worth about 60% of the grade or something. Moreover, my exams aren't true/false or short-answer, trivia questions. They are essays. Last exam, we were given the topic a couple days in advance; from that, I picked my own argument and view, researched the evidence to back it up, remembered as much as I could, then wrote my essay in-class. Sure, the professor's viewpoint might influence your own, but you have the freedom to argue for whatever you want to argue.

This is much more in line with my own experiences that what Vuk has described. One of the best things about Uni is that I have the freedom to form my own opinions and not just copy outdated rubbish out a textbook (as long as you actually back up what you are saying with references etc). In fact for the dissertation at my Uni you have to form your own viewpoint, its the main point of the project.

Heh, in the comments sections of my essays I am often told my take on things is unique, but I get the marks so its all good.

In the end, if you can't get a Historian job making money, it makes no difference.

I don't think a history degree is seen as bad at all. My plan is to go into an office job, do the 9-5, rise through the ranks a bit over time, get comfortable. Then possibly do something a bit different once I have a mid-life crisis.

[Yaropolk]

My plan is to go into an office job, do the 9-5, rise through the ranks a bit over time, get comfortable. Then possibly do something a bit different once I have a mid-life crisis.

I suggest getting caught in a police sting snorting coke off a nude tranny hooker. Your future ex-wife will have the BEST story out of all her divorcee friends. Of course the kids' therapy bills will be hefty, but you should be able to afford it by then.

Edit: Another choice would be to take up wood carving or surfing

[Megas Methuselah]

Surfing sounds cool.

[Yoyoma1910]

What if my goal is to have sex with all the education majors in my history classes and all the bright eyed women in my Poly sci classes who think they are going to be the next big thing in politics?

AM I LEARNING SKILLZ

Sounds like someone needs some prev med classes.

[drone]

Welcome back, Yoyoma1910! The hangover from the Super Bowl celebration finally wear off?

[Megas Methuselah]

Welcome back, Yoyoma1910! The hangover from the Super Bowl celebration finally wear off?

He's a handsome bugger, isn't he?

[Yoyoma1910]

Welcome back, Yoyoma1910! The hangover from the Super Bowl celebration finally wear off?

Ironically I had to spend that in enemy territory, next to some lady wearing a colts jersey no less. But that's what happens when you serve your country, sometimes you must spend winters in North Chicago.

[Andres]

Also, and this is a point which I cannot stress highly enough, you need to enjoy yourself. You will only experience the level of freedom you currently have this once; you'll never get it back. Life after undergraduate is fun as well, but it's a different kind of fun. You will never again be able to live a life without real responsibilities. Don't let the experience pass you by.

Words of wisdom

Never again will you experience the combination of young-as good as no responsiblities aka absolute freedom. Enjoy it while it lasts. Do whatever you want. Obtain the degree, but, by all means, don't put too much time and effort in it or you'll regret it afterwards.

Once you get your first job, the only thing that matters is that you have a degree. How you obtained it, doesn't matter. Future employers will look at your resume. The college degree means "not a complete moron". To see if you're actually worth something, he'll look at your work experience after college.

In short: do the minimum to get the degree; enjoy your youth and freedom to the maximum.

[Hooahguy]

By that I meant that inside your local region, employers will be well aware of the state school and you can get a leg up on out-of-region competition. However if you apply for a job on the other coast, chances are the employer has never heard of your school and it won't make a difference if you went to your local state U or a private school.

After your first job, your university matters even less, it's all about experience.

Fair enough, unless your state school is widely known, like University of Michigan or Berkeley.

[Strike For The South]

My goal:

Get into the law school with the highest amount of nice jewish girls

[Louis VI the Fat]

Goy amateur.

Voilà:

My goal:

Get into the law school with the highest amount of nice, trust fund jewish girls

[Hooahguy]

My goal:

Get into the law school with the highest amount of nice jewish girls

Whats with you and Jewish girls?

[Strike For The South]

Whats with you and Jewish girls?

I like them....

[Megas Methuselah]

I like them....

Speaking of girls, how's your sister doin' these days? Been awhile since we talked about the pretty little thing.

[Hooahguy]

I like them....

I keep telling you that if you convert your chances will go up fivefold.
Just sayin'