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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    The TSA is the Transportation Security Administration.

    In the wake of the 'underwear bomber' they insisted on body imaging scanners - Nude O Scopes - that let you see under a person's clothing. Heavy lobbying by former Department of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff for this occurred at the same time; Mr. Chertoff was paid by the company that made the scanners.

    The scanners have not been fully tested for health effects. It is thought that they produce a small amount of radiation an could produce a long term use risk, but the TSA hasn't bothered finding out or paying attention to studies done.

    The scanners have been slowly rolling out in the past year or so. It should be noted that the Government Accountability Office has determined these NoS may not even detect the type of bomb the underwear bomber had on. I.e., they could well be completely useless for their intended purpose. They likely are; the TSA doesn't know because it hasn't actually tested them for their effectiveness.

    In fact, the former head of security at the Tel Aviv airport said he could smuggle enough explosives through a NoS to bring down a 747. The Israelis don't use these scanners at their airports.

    In the past few weeks the TSA noticed no one wants to go through these NoS because they don't want federal perverts looking at pictures of them naked. The TSA says the scanners won't store pictures, but that's a lie - federal marshalls using a NoS at a courthouse stored 35,000 images.

    In response TSA stepped up the pat down of people who refused the scanner, making it more invasive and uncomfortable in order to compel people to go through the scanner. Now agents feel around the genitals, the inner thigh, buttocks, etc.

    Yet these patdowns, unconstitutional and invasive as they are, remain useless because a terrorist could hide something in his body.

    So, we have two useless but very invasive methods of security everyone has to go through to board a plane in the USA (in addition to the stupid bans on large containers of liquid and things like nail clippers).

    These should stop. They don't make people safer. They intrude on our rights. We should not have to give up our rights to travel in a modern manner.

    We need to look rationally at the risks involved. There have been millions of flights since 9/11 and hundreds of millions of passengers. But not one successful attack by people flying in the US. In fact, the TSA has never stopped a terrorist attack. Ever. They have caught items like knives and guns and even some explosive materials, but none of the people planned to use them to try to hijack or bomb the plane.

    The handful of attacks that have occurred - the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, and attacks in the planning stage - like the group that planned to make a liquid bomb - have all been stopped by passengers or by government investigators before the attackers got to the airport.

    The only worthwhile changes in security since 9/11 have been the hardening of cockpit doors and passengers knowing they have to fight any hijackers. The best way to stop future attacks is not by overreacting to yesterday's attempt, but by investing more in human intelligence to find attackers before they strike.

    If a group of terrorists reaches the airport, that means they have planned how to make a bomb or carry out an attack, and have eluded the FBI, CIA, NSA and DHS. There's no way some federal rent a cops will stop them; the terrorists can easily plan around whatever rules there are.

    A reasonable look at the risks shows that the chances of a terrorist attack are astronomical. Deciding to undergo humiliations for a nonexistent safety benefit is not logical. There's more chance of injury from driving to the airport than from a terrorist attack.

    The NoS itself may well kill as many people with radiation, even with a conservative estimate of radiation, as terrorists do, since terrorist attacks are so low.

    And by discouraging travelers from flying and encouraging more risky methods like driving, these procedures increase the number of people who die from car accidents way above the number of people who die from terrorist attacks in planes.

    We need to not give in to fear; we need to not let irrational fear of terrorists compel us to give up our rights. We have to think clearly about the risks and realize the chance that a terrorist attacks is extremely, extremely low. And since it's so low, we need to recognize that other activities in our lives, like driving, are much more risky than flying.

    Therefore, these new security measures should be ended. They serve no purpose except the humiliation of passengers. The TSA's calls for ever more invasive screening must be opposed and stopped.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Reminds me of the hand held "scanners" sold by a British company to countries around the world (including occupied Iraq) which were nothing more than a wand which went beep, essentially an electronic divining rod.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Humiliating? Sure, but that's not the main reason I'm opposed to these "security measures", for me it's all about the money.

    How much time does these security measures take? 30 minutes? Time is money, business travelers are paid while they stand in line. How much is half an hour worth? Let's say 20 bucks. Now multiply that with the number of business travelers....
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Silliness like this is exactly what the terrorists want, their attacks would mean next to nothing on the political scene if it wasn't for all the economic trouble/inconvenience to society caused by this rubbish.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Most of us would like to know that there is a method to the madness.
    The right answer should be that TSA will have physical security measures, but they will be used to target passengers on the basis of risk. Hint to TSA: not everyone going through security is a risk. Differentiating between sweet Susie law-abiding citizen and would-be terrorist starts before either of them would ever enter the airport walls. In fact, previously foiled terrorist attacks have taught us that the best way to stop terrorism is to focus on improving the flow of intelligence between local, state, and federal law enforcement and empowering them to track down terror leads in communities. Additionally, working with our international partners and robust-interagency coordination on visa and intelligence matters is equally vital. There are watchlists that can assist in stopping a terrorist from even getting on the plane, and they don't involve any kind of pat down or body scan.

    If intelligence leads TSA screeners to believe that a person requires additional review based on credible intelligence—Americans should expect, if not demand that the government pull them aside. Most of this physical screening has no place, however, in primary inspection lines. Pretending that everyone is a risk is a weak way to do intelligence—the onus is on TSA and DHS as a whole to improve this process.

    How about Behavior Recognition Screening?
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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Preaching to the choir CR. The whole process is a joke. It's been proven to be ineffective time and time again. It doesn't address the roots of the issues. And the "no fly list" is an unconstitutional crime against most of the people who are on it. I happen to know several people that are on it, and how they made it on there is utterly beyond me.

    Hosa has the right idea. Without getting into a debate about the Israelis from a larger perspective, I think they do a good job keeping their airports and flights safe. This includes levels of BRS, and more importantly they apply these measures before one ever gets into the actual airport itself.

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    BRS requires training and paying the screeners well. Why do that when you can just pay a pittance to people of dubious morals to sexually harass passengers?
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless


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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    The only worthwhile changes in security since 9/11 have been the hardening of cockpit doors and passengers knowing they have to fight any hijackers. The best way to stop future attacks is not by overreacting to yesterday's attempt, but by investing more in human intelligence to find attackers before they strike.
    Entirely correct.

    As I've noted before, it's only because most terrorists are educationally subnormal that they would even consider trying to attack aircraft these days. If one is fond of air traffic congestion, it would be a lot easier to take one's rucksack to the Arrivals area of a major airport and blow up the hundreds of people waiting for their loved ones. The intelligence services should be catching people at the plotting stage - and largely, are doing so.

    The kind of over-reaction we see in the West - typified by the airport security charade - hands undeserved victories to the terrorist and has the bonus of providing a golden opportunity for government to intrude into citizens' privacy.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    On the whole I agree with Hosa. Edit:Although this guy says that we couldn't use Israels method: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/11/...ecurity-system

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Entirely correct.

    As I've noted before, it's only because most terrorists are educationally subnormal that they would even consider trying to attack aircraft these days. If one is fond of air traffic congestion, it would be a lot easier to take one's rucksack to the Arrivals area of a major airport and blow up the hundreds of people waiting for their loved ones. The intelligence services should be catching people at the plotting stage - and largely, are doing so.
    Aren't there different profiles for local terrorists and the 9/11 type terrorists?

    Author Lawrence Wright describes the characteristic of "displacement" of members of the most famous Islamic terrorist group, Al-Qaeda.

    What the recruits tended to have in common – besides their urbanity, their cosmopolitan backgrounds, their education, their facility with languages, and their computer skills – was displacement. Most who joined the jihad did so in a country other than the one in which they were reared. They were Algerians living in expatriate enclaves in France, Moroccans in Spain, or Yemenis in Saudi Arabia. Despite their accomplishments, they had little standing in the host societies where they lived. ...."[24]
    This profile differs from that found among recent local Islamist suicide bombers in Afghanistan, according to a 2007 study of 110 suicide bombers by Afghan pathologist Dr. Yusef Yadgari. Yadgari found that "80%" of the attackers studied had some kind of physical or mental disability.
    I don't know if the motivations of the first group would be satisfied by a gesture like blowing up in the line.

    The kind of over-reaction we see in the West - typified by the airport security charade - hands undeserved victories to the terrorist
    Well but again, how is this something they care about? Are they really celebrating about muslim women in the US getting patted down or walking through scanners? Isn't that exactly what they are against? I'm suspicious of "this is what osama/the terrorists want" arguments.

    and has the bonus of providing a golden opportunity for government to intrude into citizens' privacy.
    "Golden opportunity" implies that they are motivated by the desire to intrude into people's privacy.

    What makes you think they care at all about the west over-reacting in this way?
    Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 11-22-2010 at 22:10.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    If the USA undertakes activities to alienate American Muslims this is advantageous in the long term for Osama et al as it creates problems.

    Of course, if the Muslims took the reasonable attitude of secular laws above religious laws then there would be far less of a problem in the first place.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Sorry CR, I rather come home safe then die from a bomb because you guys are to worry about them seeing your ''worms''.


    You can't even see the person's privates in detail can you?

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiKingWarmanCake88 View Post
    Sorry CR, I rather come home safe then die from a bomb because you guys are to worry about them seeing your ''worms''.


    You can't even see the person's privates in detail can you?
    The point is, Warmancake, that 1. you won't die in a bomb and 2. in the highly unlikely event that a terrorist attack occurs, these security measures will not prevent it or have any effect whatsoever.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiKingWarmanCake88 View Post
    Sorry CR, I rather come home safe then die from a bomb because you guys are to worry about them seeing your ''worms''.


    You can't even see the person's privates in detail can you?
    If you're going to be on the plane when it blows, suffice to say you're committed and don't expect to survive.

    I don't think that there are many morons who come with three sticks of dynamite down their trousers. You are more likely to get persons who've had the explosives inserted into their abdomen via surgery. Knocking down a plane is a large investment in terms of time and resources, so determined parties are going to do it properly and neither a scanner nor a pat down would by themselves add much to security.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The TSA: Worse Than Useless

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiKingWarmanCake88 View Post
    Sorry CR, I rather come home safe then die from a bomb because you guys are to worry about them seeing your ''worms''.
    No. No. No.

    It's clear you didn't read what I posted, so I won't bother repeating that THESE SCANNERS DON'T MAKE YOU SAFER.

    How about, instead of the scared sheep minded mob dominating how we travel, we get rid of these useless security procedures and then say "Hey, if you are too overcome by irrational fears, cut off from the false reassurance the security theater provides, to fly, then YOU stay at home, locked in your room clutching your blanket, shivering at all the fantastic terrors in the world, and the sane, rational people will fly without having to deal with all this BS and we'll be just as safe."

    Oh, and the useless scanners may be coming to trains, boats, and other forms of mass transit:

    The next step in tightened security could be on U.S. public transportation, trains and boats.

    Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano says terrorists will continue to look for U.S. vulnerabilities, making tighter security standards necessary.

    “[Terrorists] are going to continue to probe the system and try to find a way through,” Napolitano said in an interview that aired Monday night on "Charlie Rose."

    “I think the tighter we get on aviation, we have to also be thinking now about going on to mass transit or to trains or maritime. So, what do we need to be doing to strengthen our protections there?”
    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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