Romans In Brazil?

**vartan** · 12-19-2010, 00:51

The Romans didn't need the know-how for a passage to South America. That's what West Africans were for (in a matter of speaking; not in the offensive manner at that). How do you think Europeans were able to 'discover' the Americas? And why do you think they were sent to Cuba so as to delay their discovery of the mainland? You can thank the ancestors of those who live in what is now Sierra Leone for that knowledge (something the natives of the western coast needed in order to trade as they did with the Caribs and others from the Americas).

**Lysimachos** · 12-19-2010, 11:12

Originally Posted by Finn MacCumhail

Lysimachos, I have no idea about their motives, or what made them move so far. But having no idea why have they done it doesn't mean they didn't done it. If I don't know why people build Stonehenge, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

That's hardly comparable. There is irrefutable proof that Stonehenge exists, just go there and take a look. Ancient europeans sailing to America on the other hand, is a mere hypothesis. If you want us to believe it happened, you have to give us more than "You can't prove it didn't happen".

Originally Posted by vartan

The Romans didn't need the know-how for a passage to South America. That's what West Africans were for (in a matter of speaking; not in the offensive manner at that). How do you think Europeans were able to 'discover' the Americas? And why do you think they were sent to Cuba so as to delay their discovery of the mainland? You can thank the ancestors of those who live in what is now Sierra Leone for that knowledge (something the natives of the western coast needed in order to trade as they did with the Caribs and others from the Americas).

Would you care to elaborate on that? Are you saying the West Africans had established trade contacts with the Caribbean before Columbus' travels? And what exactly do you mean by "sent to Cuba so as to delay their discovery of the mainland"?

**Ca Putt** · 12-19-2010, 12:38

Imo ancient ~~europeans~~ mediterraneans could've possibly reached the americas by mere chance as a merchant ship(definately not a large warship) got caught by the right wind and those buggers forgot to strike the sail and they were(by mere chance) also transporting large quantities of food and fresh water and the captain was either an optimist('well, we cant go back, so lets just sail ahead and see what happens') or a fatalist(were screwed anyway so lets just go on forward) then it could have happened that a ship be it roman phonecian greek or whatever made it to the americas in one piece. but surely you couldn't be talking about ROMANS or CARTHAGIANS more of people who once lived in an ancient mediterranean empire and now are just castaways in a far away land. these things may sound like some big news but tbh this is nothing near a large historical event, think of it: in a total war game it would merely be a small message that one of your trade ships has got lost and cannot be found. if one would prove this journey history books would not have to be rewritten, the really reputable history books would probably get an extra footnote.

**Finn MacCumhail** · 12-19-2010, 15:25

Ancient Mediterranean dwellers could reach Americas. It was possible for their ships. Why it was possible? Mr. Hyeyrdal sailed to Americas from Africa on the papyrus Egyptian boat. If it was possible for Egyptian papyrus boat, it was possible for other more developed and quality ancient vessels. Anyway they could still use papyrus boats.

Nero time Romans build huge vessels with the water displacement 1200 tons (Spanish Galleons usually had 500 tons). Caligula had to bring obelisk from Egypt and used vessel with 1300 tons water displacement. Usually ships had lead and bronze coverage below waterline. Roman grain cargos were bigger then 19 century Frigates, and might deliver 1200 tons of grain at once. Average trade ship had 340 tons of different goods. In 64 AD Joseph Flavius sailed from Alexandria to Rome on the board that placed 600 passengers. Lucian described Roman grain ship, which was brought to the shore after the storm. It had 54 meters long and 13 meters height (without mast)

The key aspects of transatlantic voyages are winds and currents. Strong currents from West Africa goes to Mexican bay. Powerful Canary and North Equatorial Current with strong northeasterly trade winds help the sailors. If Romans sailed to Canary Islands, there is no surprise they could use that currents and winds to sail to Americas.

The indirect evidence:

Indian Corn on the Ocrilum (sp? Very sorry for spelling, it is my own translit from Cyrillic) baths near Rome (now in Hermitage)

picture

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Next. Herculanum and Pompey wall paintings with pineapples, annona and lemons! Pineapple came from Brazil.

Italian Casella and Russian Vavilov wrought about it.

(Casella D. La frutta nelle pinture Fompeiane // Pompeiane: racolta di scavii di Pompei. — Naples, 1950. — P. 355—386.)

How the fruits and vegetables from New World came to the patrician dinner in 1st AD?

In 1964 AD on Azor Islands were found roman pots dated 2-3 centuries AD.

In 1933 in Aztec tomb dated 13-15 centuries AD was found head of Roman sculpture dated 2 century AD. (Garcia Payon J. Una cabecita de barro, de extraña fisionomia // Boletin del Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. — México, 1961. — № 6. — P. 1—2.)

Hellen statues, Roman terracotta Venus (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)

Venezuela – roman coins dated 4 century AD. (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)

Ancient sailors

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Lvcretivs** · 12-19-2010, 17:57

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Considering this particular mosaic evidence for Roman 'pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact' with the Americas seems to me a little bit farfetched and questionable - the above mosaic in the Eremitage is not the famous actual mosaic floor of the roman thermae in Ocriculum (modern Otricoli near Rome), today in the Sala Rotonda of the Vatican Museums, but an 19th century (1847-51) 'reproduction', which, although technical very skillfully executed, isn't really faithful - especially in details of the ornamental garlands - to the original.

Concerning the postulated tropical 'pineapples', 'mangos' and 'custard-apples' in Pompeian frescoes (Casella D.:La frutta nelle pinture Pompeiane, in: Pompeiana: racolta di scavi di Pompei., P. 355-386.(Naples 1950)) - Casellas 'identifications' disregard artistic ('Hellenistic') traditions and 'pattern books' used by the painters and treat the frescoes as 'scientifically' absolute precise documentation of contemporaneous available fruits of the Roman Mediterranean. His 'pineapple' e.g. can be identified as an 'oversized' pine cone, which had ritual significance as votive offering.

**Ibrahim** · 12-24-2010, 06:56

Originally Posted by Finn MacCumhail

Ancient Mediterranean dwellers could reach Americas. It was possible for their ships. Why it was possible? Mr. Hyeyrdal sailed to Americas from Africa on the papyrus Egyptian boat. If it was possible for Egyptian papyrus boat, it was possible for other more developed and quality ancient vessels. Anyway they could still use papyrus boats.

again, you run into problem # 2 of mine: how would people know to get enough supplies for that? Thor knew where he was going, and could stock up accordingly.

and no, the Kon Tiki was based on a South American boat style, not an egyptian one. the style of sail, the shape of th bottom is different, even the details of construction are different. if you cannot even get that detail right, I dunno what to say to you.

EDIT: Thor was trying to prove that south Americans settled in Polynesia; Kon-Tiki is an old inca word for the sun god. here is an article: http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/kontiki.htm . and as I misspelled the name, I have corrected it in this post.

Originally Posted by Finn MacCumhail

Nero time Romans build huge vessels with the water displacement 1200 tons (Spanish Galleons usually had 500 tons). Caligula had to bring obelisk from Egypt and used vessel with 1300 tons water displacement. Usually ships had lead and bronze coverage below waterline. Roman grain cargos were bigger then 19 century Frigates, and might deliver 1200 tons of grain at once. Average trade ship had 340 tons of different goods. In 64 AD Joseph Flavius sailed from Alexandria to Rome on the board that placed 600 passengers. Lucian described Roman grain ship, which was brought to the shore after the storm. It had 54 meters long and 13 meters height (without mast)

most of these boats did have sails, and when they didn't, they were either rowed by oarsmen, or towed to place. and these kind of boats are incapeable of sailing in Atlantic waters (they'd crack in half from the waves), due to their construction technique. they were, however, perfect for the relatively shallow, calm, mediterranean. and yes, I';m aware of the grain ship-it was lucky to have been built for storage, rather than rowing.

The key aspects of transatlantic voyages are winds and currents. Strong currents from West Africa goes to Mexican bay. Powerful Canary and North Equatorial Current with strong northeasterly trade winds help the sailors. If Romans sailed to Canary Islands, there is no surprise they could use that currents and winds to sail to Americas.

winds and currents aren't alone: you have to consider the season (storm or no storm), and the ability of the ship to sail in contrary winds (since no matter what, a sail ship will take a few weeks to make it across), even the fact that it is an ocean (since waves there from storms will be larger and deadlier; even Rogue waves are more common there). galleys weren't used to get to the canaries necessaeily (Roman trade ships though could), and even if they were, the canary islands aren't that far from the African coast (60 miles, relatively shallow water): all a ship had to do was make repeated stops along the west African coast, then turn right when at the general latitude of the islands.

The indirect evidence:

Indian Corn on the Ocrilum (sp? Very sorry for spelling, it is my own translit from Cyrillic) baths near Rome (now in Hermitage)

picture

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Next. Herculanum and Pompey wall paintings with pineapples, annona and lemons! Pineapple came from Brazil.

Italian Casella and Russian Vavilov wrought about it.

(Casella D. La frutta nelle pinture Fompeiane // Pompeiane: racolta di scavii di Pompei. — Naples, 1950. — P. 355—386.)

How the fruits and vegetables from New World came to the patrician dinner in 1st AD?

In 1964 AD on Azor Islands were found roman pots dated 2-3 centuries AD.

In 1933 in Aztec tomb dated 13-15 centuries AD was found head of Roman sculpture dated 2 century AD. (Garcia Payon J. Una cabecita de barro, de extraña fisionomia // Boletin del Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. — México, 1961. — № 6. — P. 1—2.)

Hellen statues, Roman terracotta Venus (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)

Venezuela – roman coins dated 4 century AD. (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)

Ancient sailors

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

-I did not need to read Lucretius' comment to know that that was not really a roman Fresco: the proportions used for some objects are wrong, and the appearence is too fresh, and looks well kept (no sign of burial or erosion).
-Lemon is a word derived from Spanish IIRC, in turn from the Arabic Laymun. tell you sth about Lemons and the old world?
-the Tobacco could also be evidence of contamination-unsurprising, since some excavators of the cache would have smoked, and hence the Nicotine.
-the Azores weren't that far from the continent (930 miles) and given a bit of luck, and the right amount of supplies, I can see them making it. however, I need more evidence of those coins having been found there, as IIRC, the earliest discovery was by the portuguese. until then, I will consider this as a lie on the part of whatever source you use.

**Finn MacCumhail** · 12-24-2010, 10:07

Lvcretivs, the issue with Pompeii painting shows that there are 2 theories that can exist. Mr Zhukovsky was not 'conspiracy' author, but very influential botanist. I do not want to say that if he says smth that it is absolute truth, but that he had an experience and knowledge to state that. Where is the truth? Who is right, Cassela and Zhukovsky or their opponents? I really doubt they didn't knew about pines.

The chief argument against the theory why couldn't Romans or other Mediterenians be in Americas is "it is impossible because it is impossible". That is way any argument starting with paintings in Pompeii and ending with archaeological findings in America can not be truth because "it is impossible".

You convinced me with Scipio travel, but what about all those findings? Also currents and routes that used Columbus might be used at any historical time, not only during Columbus live.

Ibrahim, you should know, that Thor Heyerdahl had not only Kon Tiki expedition. His Egyptian boat called Ra 2 (this picture http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%...I.InMuseum.jpg compare with Kon Tiki http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%...kiInMuseum.jpg). You can read his book about this expedition or just google it.

Speaking about Lemon, it's motherland is India and China, not Spain.

To reach Azores you can not hold shores. It means that people could find them without holding any shores using stars for navigation may be, it means that they were able to find other distant land with stars, or smth.

Cracking down ships... well, not everyone believed that papyrus boat can survive the transatlantic voyage. Also some man in 1976 sailed through the north Atlantic ocean on small boat made of bull skin. And he did it.

How to explain archeological finding in America, that evidence the Roman or other pre Columbu visits?

**Ludens** · 12-24-2010, 12:30

Originally Posted by Finn MacCumhail

The chief argument against the theory why couldn't Romans or other Mediterenians be in Americas is "it is impossible because it is impossible". That is way any argument starting with paintings in Pompeii and ending with archaeological findings in America can not be truth because "it is impossible".

Finn, I don't think anybody here has claimed it was impossible for the Romans to have reached America. The actual argument is (a) that it is fairly unlikely; and (b) the evidence that it did occur hardly provides a coherent picture of Roman-American contact, so we are justified in doubting it.

How to explain archeological finding in America, that evidence the Roman or other pre Columbu visits?

We've given you two alternative explanations. You've addressed only one. Of course, you may think it unlikely, but equally we find your explanation (that there was major trade-contact between the Romans and the Americas which left nothing but scatted images of fruits in Europa and some coins and a statue in America) not convincing. I don't think further arguments can be made at this point, so perhaps we should agree to disagree.

**Ibrahim** · 12-26-2010, 06:26

Originally Posted by Finn MacCumhail

The chief argument against the theory why couldn't Romans or other Mediterenians be in Americas is "it is impossible because it is impossible". That is way any argument starting with paintings in Pompeii and ending with archaeological findings in America can not be truth because "it is impossible".

no one here claimed it was impossible. However, at least two people called it unlikely, either due to Archaeology and historical accounts (Lvcretivs), or due to supply, navigation, or ship structure (me). why you'd ignore everything we say, or completely skew what we said, is beyond me.

Ibrahim, you should know, that Thor Heyerdahl had not only Kon Tiki expedition. His Egyptian boat called Ra 2 (this picture http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%...I.InMuseum.jpg compare with Kon Tiki http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%...kiInMuseum.jpg). You can read his book about this expedition or just google it.

I'm aware of these: and again, none address the structural problems of Roman galleys (the typical ship of the Roman era). to my knowlege, none are 90ft+ in length; none have length to width ratios of 7:1 or more; and none have crews of almost 60 or more, all of whom involved in strenuous, 24 hour activities (i.e, the oarsmen), or coordinating the activities of these men. lastly, none of the above, in consequence of lacking the type of crew a Roman galley has, lacks space enough to store dunnage in their hold to feed every member of the voyage.

what that has to do with the kon tiki's construction itself is beyond me, since my comment then was about how you specifically stated the kon tiki was of egyptian design; either way, they are irrelevant to the debate, as the construction technique, donnage, transportation means, and even the reason for the voyage, are different from a hypothetical roman galley.

Speaking about Lemon, it's motherland is India and China, not Spain.

I already knew that. what I was criticizing with my statement was how you mentioned Lemons as evidence for your "idea".

To reach Azores you can not hold shores. It means that people could find them without holding any shores using stars for navigation may be, it means that they were able to find other distant land with stars, or smth.

what the heck are you talking about? I earlier clearly stated that galleys made regular stops as a result of lack of storage space for supplies in Roman galleys, not lack of navigation skill. and again, i did state that roman trade ships from the common era could-the ones that relied more on sail, were relatively wider.

Cracking down ships... well, not everyone believed that papyrus boat can survive the transatlantic voyage. Also some man in 1976 sailed through the north Atlantic ocean on small boat made of bull skin. And he did it.

you don't get it, do you? a roman galley is not the kon tiki, or that leather boat (which IIRC was to replicate St. Brandon's voyage), or any other of these experimental ships: as mentioned earlier, galleys were not built for the open seas, galleys lacked the ability to hold supplies for such a trip, and lastly, being 90ft or so, and incredibly narrow, they run the risk of hogging and sagging. hogging and sagging is the same issue that people point out to creationists when dealing with Noah's Ark afterall.

How to explain archeological finding in America, that evidence the Roman or other pre Columbu visits?

1-accident (someone misplaced an artifact (it happens)
2-hoax
3-coincidence

see, I just came up with 3 ways to account for ways these "items" of yours could end up in the Americas, aside from Romans landing there.

**vartan** · 12-20-2010, 05:05

Originally Posted by Lysimachos

Would you care to elaborate on that? Are you saying the West Africans had established trade contacts with the Caribbean before Columbus' travels? And what exactly do you mean by "sent to Cuba so as to delay their discovery of the mainland"?

To re-iterate and more, Europeans' 'need' (let's call it) to find a route to the Americas (as they saw it, the 'Indies') was satisfied. I can still recall the general plot of the history (pre-European trans-Atlantic trade/transportation isn't my niche). You may have heard of the Caribs, the people from whom the Caribbean received her name. Apparently, West African people(s) were trading with the Caribs, who themselves already had a trade network that connected N., C., and S. America. I think it is Bartolome de las Casas (but I may be mistaken) who can help a reader realize soon enough that these Caribs used gold as ornaments, not as value-containers (those were left for the cocoa beans). Anyway, the West Africans were trading with these Caribs. That is, the Africans knew of the routes to the Americas, both the mainlands as well as the islands. There was a prince in where is now Sierra Leone, and his family was held hostage and the prince, a navigator, was used to take the first ships (I think there were three) to the Americas. Being clever, of course, the prince didn't take Cristobal Colon to the mainland, but to an island the Spaniard was to call Hispaniola (I think that would be Cuba). Anyway, this is why it took another 30 or so years for the Europeans to reach the mainland. Of course, by that time, millions had already died, whole islands wiped out, and the rest is history. This isn't my interested niche, but thinking about it more makes it all the more interesting, so I'll contact my source and see if he can dig up anything on this (being a fan of videography, it sounds to me like a possible candidate for a feature film).

**Lvcretivs** · 12-20-2010, 19:18

[...]Anyway, the West Africans were trading with these Caribs. That is, the Africans knew of the routes to the Americas, both the mainlands as well as the islands. There was a prince in where is now Sierra Leone, and his family was held hostage and the prince, a navigator, was used to take the first ships (I think there were three) to the Americas. Being clever, of course, the prince didn't take Cristobal Colon to the mainland, but to an island the Spaniard was to call Hispaniola (I think that would be Cuba).

Absolutely no offence meant, vartan, but that's an extremely questionable 'hypothesis' - not to say conspiracy theory - based on virtual no 'hard' nor even circumstantial evidence. Neither for transatlantic African-Carib trade nor for the existence of an West African 'prince' acting as Columbus' navigator exists any historical documentation.

The only African 'prince' associated with the various 'pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact' theories I can think of is the semilegendary mansā Abu Bakr II of the Mali Empire (reigned ca.1310/11[?] - 180 years before Columbus!), who, according to an anecdote documented by the Arab historian Shihāb al-Dīn al-Umarī (1300/01-1349) 'did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth [the Atlantic Ocean]: he wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years' and sent this fleet on a westward journey, from which it not returned. The mansā eventually built a second fleet under his personal command, departed and vanished traceless.

Afrocentric authors, which your source seems to take at face value, take this story as an account of an early African exploratory journey discovering the Americas - which completely negates the dubious historicity of both Abu Bakr II and the curiously cursory tale related by the Arab historian - there is no oral tradition in Mali recounting his reign and his surely spectacular journey and disappeareance, his historical existence as mansā is attested directly only by al-Umarī, and the story is generally vague und 'parabolic' (excellent German wikipedia article).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**vollorix** · 12-20-2010, 19:59

Got no source at hand, but i remember reading something about the old maps which Columbus & Co. used. On the other hand: while analyzing the body of one of the Pharaos the traces of "coca" have been found, - a plant originated ( only ) from South America. Those are two infos coming to my mind, with no scientific sources or support material, though. And iirc, the knowledge about the fact, that the Earth is a ball is quite old, and that information would be enough encouragement for some intrepid explorers of the ancient times to accept the challenge and find out, what´s out there, imho.

**Finn MacCumhail** · 12-20-2010, 22:42

Palmira, Baal Temple 1 BC- 1 AD. Look what lies on the table.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

pineapple in Pompii http://www.pompeisepolta.com/english/america.htm

and this (perhapse in Spanish) http://www.vendotutto.org/public/fla...&id=1238411103

moar

"Isiac lararia had all the usual features of domestic cult: niche, altar, snake, offerings (eggs, pineapple, fruits)."
Pompeii Revisited: The Life and Death of a Roman Town
Von Jean-Paul Descœudres, Penelope Mary Allison, Derek Harrison. Meditarch, 1994
ISBN 0646206591, 9780646206592

**stratigos vasilios** · 12-21-2010, 14:25

Garh! I heard somewhere (I'm source-less I'm sorry) that China has given a map or a route for Columbus to use to get to the Americas. I'm not sure how accurate that is, clearly being source-less doesn't strengthen my arguement, but it's something I've heard.

You know, talking about the Americas and all...

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