pff, wouldn't it be easier for them to find the holy grail?Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
/joke
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
pff, wouldn't it be easier for them to find the holy grail?
/joke
Last edited by al Roumi; 01-10-2011 at 18:27.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
An interesting point:
The Giffords shooting doesn’t prove that Sarah Palin has blood on her hands. What it does prove is that when it comes to terrorism, people like Sarah Palin have a serious blind spot. On the political right, and at times even the political center, there is a casual assumption—so taken for granted that it is rarely even spoken—that the only terrorist threat America faces is from jihadist Islam. There was a lot of talk a couple of weeks back, you’ll remember, about a terrorist attack during the holiday season. And there’s been a lot of talk in the last couple of years about the threat of homegrown terrorists. Well, we’ve just experienced a terrorist attack over the holiday season, and it was indeed homegrown. Had the shooters’ name been Abdul Mohammed, you’d be hearing the familiar drumbeat about the need for profiling and the pathologies of Islam. But since his name was Jared Lee Loughner, he gets called “mentally unstable”; the word “terrorist” rarely comes up. When are we going to acknowledge that good old-fashioned white Americans are every bit as capable of killing civilians for a political cause as people with brown skin who pray to Allah? There’s a tradition here. Historically, American elites, especially conservative American elites, have tended to reserve the term “terrorism” for political violence committed by foreigners. In the early 20th century, for instance, there was enormous fear, even hysteria, about the terrorist threat from anarchist and communist immigrants from Eastern or Southern Europe, people like Sacco and Vanzetti. In the aftermath of World War I, large numbers of immigrant radicals were arrested and deported. Nothing similar happened to members of the white, protestant Ku Klux Klan, even though its violence was more widespread.
I see his point and yet I don't. Clearly the shooter was unhinged, so ascribing "terrorist" motives is suspect. And yet, clearly the Islamists who attacked us on 9/11 were also unhinged, if in a more organized fashion. Not sure where to draw the lines here. As per usual, however, we underestimate the domestic threat while overplaying the foreign. That seems to be our default position.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
The point is surely the demagoguery and the mutual violently hostile rhetoric. To my mind, an attack may as easily have come from the left, someone attacking Palin, for example. She faces perhaps even more vitriol from the US left wing than Gifford afaik.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Ah yes, Mr. Krugman. Memo to Paul Krugman: My Search was not in Vain.
Soul searching is in order by both sides of the political aisle. Heck the blood wasn't even dry and political activists of all persuasions were chewing on important questions like : Who in American politics deserves a slice of the blame? What public officials find themselves with a sudden opportunity for political gain from this tragedy?
This represents the worst & most cynical aspect of Washington. That is the exact tone that I am heartily sick of.
Enjoy your schadenfreude, careful not to choke.Originally Posted by HoreTore
But that of course doesn't change the fact that the political tone in the US hasa grown more and more hateful over the last decade. Nor the fact that an incident like this is the logical consequence of such a climate.
I will now step back, grab my popcorn, and watch the right-wingers blame each other for this.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Well, that was quick. The very first Incredibly Stupid Law related to this shooting has now been proposed:
Representative Bob Brady of Pennsylvania told The Caucus he plans to introduce a bill that would ban symbols like that now-infamous campaign cross-hair map.
"You can't threaten the president with a bull's-eye or a cross hair," Mr. Brady, a Democrat, said, and his measure would make it a crime to do so to a member of Congress or federal employee, as well.
Asked if he believed the map incited the gunman in Tucson, he replied, "I don't know what's in that nut's head. I would rather be safe than sorry."
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Palin's completely moronic maps and statements didn't directly or indirectly contribute to the shooting that took place. So suggest so would imo, be unwise considering there is not enough evidence at this current time to suggest that. Not all the facts about the suspect have even been released at this point, the investigation is not over.
However, the larger point to make here is that such statements and maps from Palin and other politicians demonizing the other side should completely stop. Why? Because it is just ******* disgraceful and it quite frankly is insulting to spout that kind of stuff to anyone to who has experienced the same tragedy that the congresswoman has. The only reason why this particular shooting is important is because a judge was killed and because a congresswoman got shot, but plenty of everyday normal people get shot and killed every day. They have families and friends who are affected by the loss as well and to go about on a campaign of insinuating that we must water the tree of liberty in America with "evil tyrants (nods head over to democrats)" blood is just downright indecent towards people who really have experienced what it's like to have a loved one have his blood water the lawn after a drive by shooting.
It's time to grow up and I am not trying to make this a right-wing bashing post, but it is quite evident that most of the childish and reckless statements in the discourse are propagated by right wing talking heads. Seriously you guys, this is just a terrible tragedy and on one hand you got the left with baseless accusations and on the other hand you got the right acting like childish teenagers, slinging violent phrases like teenagers sling swear words within every sentence.
Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 01-10-2011 at 21:26.
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Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
I'm just surprised that this only happens now.
If you honestly can't see how Fox, Sarah Palin, the Tea Party and the various conspiracionnist nutjobs who plague the US aren't tied to this, then you're a fool. Using military terms for politics is usually not really a good sign.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
David Frum, as usual, is right on the money:
Obviously, Palin never intended to summon people to harm Representative Giffords. There was no evidence that the shooter was a Palin follower, and in short order it became evident that he was actuated by a serious mental illness. Whatever you think about Palin’s “don’t retreat, reload” rhetoric, it could not be blamed for this crime.
So – argument won? No. Argument lost.
Palin failed to appreciate the question being posed to her. That question was not: “Are you culpable for the shooting?” The question was: “Having put this unfortunate image on the record, can you respond to the shooting in a way that demonstrates your larger humanity? And possibly also your potential to serve as leader of the entire nation?”
And of course, in classical I-accuse-you-of-exactly-what-I-am-accused-of fashion, nutjob Glenn Beck throws gasoline on the nutty embers:
"Sarah, as you know, peace is always the answer," Beck said on air, reading from his email. "I know you are feeling the same heat, if not much more on this. I want you to know you have my support. But please look into protection for your family. An attempt on you could bring the republic down."
"Bring the republic down"? For reals?
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Political assasinations in Norway: 0
Attempted assasinations in Norway: 0
Yes, us Norwegian lefties are a real terror.....
Last edited by HoreTore; 01-10-2011 at 22:13.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Not going back on what I just said, but this video should be HoreTore's evidence for CR's demands for specific events of violent speech:
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/...nal-rage-radio
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Yes. I know about this Democrat target map. I've known about it since before I started this thread, I saw it when I was googling for the Palin map. Like Rabbit's Obama quotes, it is not about contextless quotes or isolated maps or the occasional outburst. It is about an entire philosophy, a sustained tone.
The hard right / Tea Party has insurrection and 'constitutional minimalism' and guns and a vehement anti-governmental philosophy at the heart of its political message. As much as the liberal hard left is obsessed with gender and race issues.
It is preposterous to take an incidental, isolated women's issue quote by Ann Coulter to show that the hard right is just as much about gender and race issues as the hard left. It is equally preposterous to find a handful of quotes and pictures that show the hardleft is as much about guns and anti-government as the hard right. Either would fail to understand some of the core issues of both political wings.
Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 01-10-2011 at 23:49.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Jared Loughner's sickness is not the product of politics.
A bit of rationality to rebutt the drive-by media.This line of argument is itself an attack on democratic discourse, and it is amazing that it even needs to be rebutted. Taking such an argument seriously will only encourage more crazy people to believe they can trigger a national soul-searching if they shoot at a political target. We should denounce the murders and the murderer, rather than doing him the honor of suggesting that his violence flows in any explainable fashion from democratic debate.
President Obama does have an opportunity here, but it is not to link—"deftly" or otherwise—his political opponents to Mr. Loughner. This would only further poison and polarize our public debate. Mr. Obama can lift the level of public discourse by explaining the reality of Mr. Loughner's illness and calling out those on the right and left who want to blame the other side for murder. That would be a genuinely Presidential act of leadership, and it would have the added advantage of being honest about the murders in Tucson.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
An attack on democratic discourse? What drugs are those guys on?
This is an attack on political agitation. Which is something dramatically different to sensible, democratic debate.
I am truly fascinated that a good newspaper like WSJ is unable to see the clear difference between the two. Lenin is probably laughing is mummified behind off in his mausoleum.
Last edited by HoreTore; 01-10-2011 at 23:59.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Hmm. I would avoid using Mr. Limbaugh's pet phrase, even though I agree with your point. No need to bring the fat, thrice-divorced demagogue into this, seeing as he is one of the prime examples of a public persona who dances on the edge of incitement.
I also find it kinda hilarious that many of the same people who have been throwing firebombs and spouting eliminationist rhetoric are now claiming that saying anything about them and their role in creating an atmosphere of anger will ... um ... create an atmosphere of anger ... or something like that ...
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
The WSJ is owned by Murdoch now.
The cynic in me was waiting for something like this. I'm sure something is also in the works to get congresspeople Secret Service details or something similar to raise them above the unwashed masses.
The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions
If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat
"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
As much as I hate liberals, I have to say, as a moderate Libertarian, that the Right isn't helping matters much.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
It's nice to see the good people at WBC doing their part to tone down the rhetoric.
The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions
If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat
"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
The Westboro folks ... ugh. What can you say that hasn't been said a thousand times? Sick, sad people.
Here's a pretty good essay, comes close to expressing what I'm feeling. I do not believe any particular politician or group bears any direct responsibility for the assassin. However, the eliminationist rhetoric has been a bit much, and after an event such as this, should be toned the hell down.
Since Barack Obama took office, prominent voices on the right have called him an ally of Islamist radicals in their Grand Jihad against America, a radical Kenyan anti-colonialist, a man who pals around with terrorists and used a financial crisis to deliberately weaken America, an usurper who was born abroad and isn’t even eligible to be president, a guy who has somehow made it so that it’s okay for black kids to beat up white kids on buses, etc. I haven’t even touched on the conspiracy theories of Glenn Beck. The birthers excepted, the people making these chargers are celebrated by movement conservatives – they’re given book deals, awards, and speaking engagements.
If all of these charges were true, a radicalized citizenry would be an appropriate response. But even the conservatives who defend Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, D’Souza, McCarthy, and so many others don’t behave as if they believe all the nonsense they assert. The strongest case against these people isn’t that their rhetoric inspires political violence. It’s that they frequently utter indefensible nonsense. The problem isn’t their tone. It’s that the substance of what they’re saying is so blinkered that it isn’t even taken seriously by their ideological allies (even if they’re too cowardly, mercenary or team driven to admit as much).
They’re in a tough spot these days partly because it’s impossible for them to mount the defense of their rhetoric that is true: “I am a frivolous person, and I don’t choose my words based on their meaning. Rather, I behave like the worst caricature of a politician. If you think my rhetoric logically implies that people should behave violently, you’re mistaken – neither my audience nor my peers in the conservative movement are engaged in a logical enterprise, and it’s unfair of you to imply that people take what I say so seriously that I can be blamed for a real world event. Don’t you see that this is all a big game? This is how politics works. Stop pretending you’re not in on the joke.”
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Westboro? Weren't they the guys the kkk denied affiliation with?
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
This is terrible. Suggesting that violent rhetoric encourages crazy people to attack political targets? TALK LIKE THAT ENCOURAGES CRAZY PEOPLE TO ATTACK POLITICAL TARGETS
This on the other hand, is excellent. Although it's still an open question whether their tone is has this effect.If all of these charges were true, a radicalized citizenry would be an appropriate response. But even the conservatives who defend Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, D’Souza, McCarthy, and so many others don’t behave as if they believe all the nonsense they assert. The strongest case against these people isn’t that their rhetoric inspires political violence. It’s that they frequently utter indefensible nonsense. The problem isn’t their tone. It’s that the substance of what they’re saying is so blinkered that it isn’t even taken seriously by their ideological allies (even if they’re too cowardly, mercenary or team driven to admit as much).
They’re in a tough spot these days partly because it’s impossible for them to mount the defense of their rhetoric that is true: “I am a frivolous person, and I don’t choose my words based on their meaning. Rather, I behave like the worst caricature of a politician. If you think my rhetoric logically implies that people should behave violently, you’re mistaken – neither my audience nor my peers in the conservative movement are engaged in a logical enterprise, and it’s unfair of you to imply that people take what I say so seriously that I can be blamed for a real world event. Don’t you see that this is all a big game? This is how politics works. Stop pretending you’re not in on the joke.”
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
The message may be different, but the aggressive approach is shared. To say the right has more potentially violent rhetoric than the left is without evidence. Obama kept up a tone of fighting and defeating his political opponents. Many leftist protesters expressed seething hatred at Bush and republicans.
It comes from a phrase spoken by one of our best Presidents - Thomas Jefferson. I don't think those who speak it truly appreciate what it means, believing themselves to be the patriots and their opponents the tyrants exclusively.Don't you think we'd be better off without all that kind of "it's time to water the tree of liberty" crap?
Nor do I think our discourse has sunk to some unplumbed depth.
CR
Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 01-11-2011 at 03:52.
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
It seems like a dumb idea to me, and we supplanted it with the tradition of peaceful protests long ago.
This quote to me sounds like he would ditch the blood of patriots part if he were alive today. We remind the government differently today.Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
I think those trying to link this to the Right have the burden of proof, don't you? I mean I could say that this guy was angry that Giffords didn't push for a public option and what basis would anyone have for rejecting that theory? I could say that he was mad that McDonalds left pickles on his burger that morning when he specifically requested no pickles. What basis would anyone have for rejecting that theory? The point being, we have no clue what motivated this guy, and what clues we do have about his politics do not paint a man associated with the traditional Left-Right political dynamic.
The Left has been forced to step back from their initial baseless claims of Palin and Tea Party motivations, and have now fallen back on vague claims of hostile rhetoric.
So I'll repeat, is there any evidence, any at all, that the shooter was motivated by the "angry" political atmosphere? Is it possible that the shooter could have been acting in a mental vacuum of his own delirium that had absolutely nothing to do with the political climate?
Until such a link is established, this remains a monumental example of jumping the gun (no pun intended) at best, and a media hit job at worst.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Criticize the media all you want, but I don't see why it's a burden of proof thing here. That would be pretty stifling for the backroom. I think it's an interesting idea.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
And just when did you stop beating your wife?
That's awesome. It seems more often than not, most of the people who go around wringing their hands saying "this is the worst X ever" are historically clueless and/or just trying to stir people up. I guess that's why its usually the news media that does it- to gin up ratings.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Critisize the media all you want but Louis is right, the climate for political assassination has been created, got little patience for boohoohoo when that's pointed out. This woman was attacked by a rightwing nutjob and he murdered 7 while doing it, distantiating rather than defence would be the proper thing to do. Common she was marked as a target on a map, what do you expect will happen. The people who called for the removal of Fortuyn from our society are still pretending they don't understand what they did, but it's simply murder by proxy
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Certainly the backroom is no courtroom, but for a claim to have merit don't you think it should at least have some factual support? Using one of my previous examples, if I were to come into the thread and claim that this guy was a radical Leftist who was angry that Giffords did not do enough to further a Leftist agenda while the Democrats had control of congress, shouldn't I have at least some basis for it beyond my own imagination?
So far, there is no basis for any of the claims being made in this thread. It may very well turn out that he was in some way or another influenced by the Right in some capacity, but at this point all the whining is nothing but speculation with the intent of scoring political points off of this tragedy. It is disgusting.
Apparently you know something I do not. Can you link to the story that confirms his Right-wing views?
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Well, maybe it was a left-wing white supremacist organization, anything's possible ...
[S]trong suspicion is being direceted at American Renaissance, an organization that Loughner mentioned in some of his internet postings and federal law enforcement officials are investigating Loughner's possible links to the organization. The organization is a monthly publication that promotes a variety of white racial positions.
"The group's ideology is anti government, anti immigration, anti ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government), anti Semitic," according to the memo which goes on to point out that Congressman Giffords is the first Jewish female elected to high office in Arizona. A recent posting on American Renaissance's website on January 7 begins with an article entitled: "Exit poll: Whites are Different." The site goes on to list anti-immigration articles. Investigators are also pursuing Loughner's alleged anti-Semitism.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Maybe he was a right-wing Marxist? He apparently was a grammar Nazi.
At the extreme end of the political spectrum he was it the line becomes a circle.
Whatever. It's very entertaining. Everyone views him through their own filter and most people apparently have a need to fit him into a certain slot. It provides them with some level of comfort.
Last edited by Vladimir; 01-11-2011 at 17:10.
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
Down with dried flowers!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
I view him as a pathetic whacko.... what's that say about me?Whatever. It's very entertaining. Everyone views him through their own filter and most people apparently have a need to fit him into a certain slot. It provides them with some level of comfort.
I think the efforts by many thus far to attribute his actions to anything other than himself is pathetic.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
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