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  1. #1
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Dangerous isolationism!

    You have been listening too much to commies, fascists, Islamists, and Noam Chomsky. They'd all want America out.

    If the Americans had stayed in Europe after 1919 there would never have been a WWII.
    If the Americans had stayed in Europe after 1945 there would never have been a WWIII. As indeed, the careful reader wil note, didn't happen.

    Meanwhile, the Koreans and Japanese are most happy with the American presence. And as for me, if I were an Iraqi or Afghani, I think I'd prefer the Americans over Saddam or the Talifascists.
    It is not Americas job to ensure democracy around the world nor is it Americas job to crave out little sections of countries and hace a "prescence" Both things fly in the face of all that is holy
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  2. #2
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    It is not Americas job to ensure democracy around the world nor is it Americas job to crave out little sections of countries and hace a "prescence" Both things fly in the face of all that is holy
    Where will you counter China? At the Rockies? At the Mississippi?

    Or would you rather build a viable set of alliances with Korea, Japan, and others in the region? This maintains democracy, stabilises the region, and empowers Americas allies to defend themselves.


    Yes, Jefferson's much maligned entangling alliances. But unlike in Jefferson's time, people nowadays can fly planes to sneak attack American harbors and skyscrapers.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 01-26-2011 at 18:34.
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  3. #3
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Where will you counter China? At the Rockies? At the Mississippi?

    Or would you rather build a viable set of alliances with Korea, Japan, and others in the region? This maintains democracy, stabilises the region, and empowers Americas allies to defend themselves.


    Yes, Jefferson's much maligned entangling alliances. But unlike time, people nowadays can fly planes to bomb American harbors and skyscrapers.
    We can maintain alliances without a "prescence". Like you say planes can now transport things, sometimes even men and material.

    These fantasies of US cities being bombed and a Chinese occupation are tin foil hat at best

    I realize you are merely playing devils adovacate but it grows tiresome, the only real reason the military budget hasn't been cut is because a few powerful people make an absolute killing.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    You are espousing Isolationism and asking that the US withdraw from the world stage.

    Who fills the void and how does that offer the US security?


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    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
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  5. #5
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    You are espousing Isolationism and asking that the US withdraw from the world stage.

    Who fills the void and how does that offer the US security?
    yes no

    I don't care who fills the void, military installations on soverign soil is ethically wrong and crippilingly exspensive.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    yes no

    I don't care who fills the void, military installations on soverign soil is ethically wrong and crippilingly exspensive.
    OMG!

    Then why is Andy Jackson one of your heros?


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  7. #7
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    OMG!

    Then why is Andy Jackson one of your heros?
    Isolationism and a withdrawal from the world stage are not completley intertwined

    Because he was an orney arrogant bastard who killed men for disrespecting him

    Not to mention his two regerts in LIFE were that he did not kill more people

    I have very different metrics for admration than most people
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  8. #8
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    acin what experience do you have with the military?

    and a 16 man platoon is the norm now. two squads and two fireteams. 8 men to a squad. do you understand the reprecussions of fighting with a 16 man squad when your not fighting scum with antiquated weapons using terror tactics. what those numbers can result in if you were to fight a real army even one like North Korea.

    the military is already stretched thin to cut more manpower would be foolish and unwise. the US needs the biggest military in the world for many reasons. Your isolationist policy is bull and completely untenable.

    and military installations on sovreign soil are not ethically wrong...... many countries welcome american bases. even in japan the minority want to remove the base.

    cutting manpower doesnt save money. cutting r and d does. you want our soldiers to go out with inferior weapons and protection and fight with antiquated weapons systems? How about you save some money from something else in government like healthcare or social security. The military does more for jobs and the ecconomy than both of those.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Draw Down

    nvm
    Last edited by PlusPlayer1; 01-27-2011 at 16:15.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    It is not two wars, it is two deployments. If it were wars you would be looking at scores of Divisions and not the amount you have today.

    You will never have an army politicians can’t deploy. They won’t make that restriction so long as they have troops.
    You can redefine the word war however you like, but the fact is that when you send your military into an active conflict, that is a war. The amount we pay everyday is the amount needed to pay for a war, by simply having troops on the ground in active duty with a purpose to kill an enemy, you are operating a war, even if the enemy is only a rabble of AK-47 thugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    acin what experience do you have with the military?

    and a 16 man platoon is the norm now. two squads and two fireteams. 8 men to a squad. do you understand the reprecussions of fighting with a 16 man squad when your not fighting scum with antiquated weapons using terror tactics. what those numbers can result in if you were to fight a real army even one like North Korea.

    the military is already stretched thin to cut more manpower would be foolish and unwise. the US needs the biggest military in the world for many reasons. Your isolationist policy is bull and completely untenable.

    and military installations on sovreign soil are not ethically wrong...... many countries welcome american bases. even in japan the minority want to remove the base.

    cutting manpower doesnt save money. cutting r and d does. you want our soldiers to go out with inferior weapons and protection and fight with antiquated weapons systems? How about you save some money from something else in government like healthcare or social security. The military does more for jobs and the ecconomy than both of those.
    Don't change the number of people in a platoon or a squad or whatever, just reduce the overall number of platoons and squads. Keep the groups in sizes that work optimally and reduce the amount of groups by X.

    Cutting manpower does save money because whether you want to admit it or not, operating hundreds of manned military bases around the world and the logistics of keeping them fed and operational is expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    You are espousing Isolationism and asking that the US withdraw from the world stage.

    Who fills the void and how does that offer the US security?
    Who cares who fills the void? There is no threat. China is not a threat. How many times does that need to be said?



    EDIT: Like I said before, the arguments keeps coming down to fear mongering over a non existent threat and an inability for the military to perform, which are both absolute bunk.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 01-26-2011 at 20:35.


  11. #11
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    there are still viable threats to american security which operate on a conventional methodology.

    and you have no idea we could all wake up tmmrw to a military coup in china by some radical militant. hypotheses are in the end hypotheses. because we said there would never be another major war after ww1 we were woefully unprepared for ww2. dont make the mistakes history has already made.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    there are still viable threats to american security which operate on a conventional methodology.

    and you have no idea we could all wake up tmmrw to a military coup in china by some radical militant. hypotheses are in the end hypotheses. because we said there would never be another major war after ww1 we were woefully unprepared for ww2. dont make the mistakes history has already made.
    We prepare ourselves for the reality which presents itself today. Attempting to prepare for all possible outcomes in this world is foolish and overextending, which I think supports what Strike has been saying from the beginning.

    EDIT: WW2 is a bad example, anyone who had an ear turned to the global politics could see the writing on the wall for 5 years before the war began. I have seen time magazines from the late 1930s that make you wonder out loud, how could they have not known. People did know, which is why many in the US worked to help the UK, those that didn't want to help the Brits, did so out of national interest (the isolationists).
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 01-26-2011 at 22:46.


  13. #13
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    You can redefine the word war however you like, but the fact is that when you send your military into an active conflict, that is a war. The amount we pay everyday is the amount needed to pay for a war, by simply having troops on the ground in active duty with a purpose to kill an enemy, you are operating a war, even if the enemy is only a rabble of AK-47 thugs.
    Iraq and Afghanistan are not wars. If they were, Congress would have said so. As it stands, they are deployments by the executive branch, funded by the Chinese. Part of this argument is that the financial costs of maintaining these deployments are somewhat invisible to the US population. We may be at "war", but our economy is not on a war footing, and the population does not feel the pinch (yet). If it did, the political pressure to either get out or resolve as quickly as possible would be much greater than it is now. Or maybe we wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draw Down

    Cutting bases and cutting troops are two totally different things.

    We went through massive base closures in the 1990s and what is left was what Congress wanted to keep.

    You may think them unimportant but each one has a serious purpose.

    We have discussed troop levels and if you can't see there are not enough to do the jobs we have without any surprises or contingencies, that is your choice.

    All I can say is that it is one of those things no one is happy paying for but if you need it then it has already paid for its self.

    Don't confuse your disagreements and disenchantment with operations with the value of the organizations.

    You just won't see that it is a political issue you have.

    The people who serve or have served didn't do it to get rich.

    It is not an easy job even in peace.

    They are looked down upon by people who have not the slightest idea of what they sacrifice and endure.

    They take the blame and abuse brought on by politicians and the uninformed.

    If you won't see its usefulness that is your choice.

    It just strikes me as the same as those who see no usefulness in algebra or physics. They encounter it daily but don't see it...

    We must simply agree to disagree.


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
    Mark Twain

  15. #15

    Default Re: Draw Down

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    Iraq and Afghanistan are not wars. If they were, Congress would have said so. As it stands, they are deployments by the executive branch, funded by the Chinese. Part of this argument is that the financial costs of maintaining these deployments are somewhat invisible to the US population. We may be at "war", but our economy is not on a war footing, and the population does not feel the pinch (yet). If it did, the political pressure to either get out or resolve as quickly as possible would be much greater than it is now. Or maybe we wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.
    Just because the costs have not hit the American citizen, does not make our army fighting on foreign soil fighting an "engagement" or what have you instead of a war. There are many ways to pay for a war, you can take the easy way out and borrow more or you can prep the economic for war status, to make the American public less resistive to conflicts, Congress chooses one of the other since the second half of the 20th century.

    Let us be honest here about we got ourselves into here. We got attacked, and declared a War on Terror. We then invaded Afghanistan, and two years later, Iraq. What does everyone say when we talk about Iraq and Afghanistan. We call it the Iraq War. We call it the War in Afghanistan. No one says Operation Iraqi Freedom anymore. The public recognizes what these "conflicts" are. Prolonged wars against insurgents. Merely pointing out the fact that Congress worked around having to make it official does not revoke the reality of the situation.

    EDIT: Are we to start calling the Vietnam War, what it really was under your definitions, the "Vietnam conflict/engagement"?
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 01-27-2011 at 00:07.


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