Middle-Earth campaign map?

[Stazi]

I'm just looking for Middle-Earth high res picture suitable for a campaign map. If you have any or know where I can find it, please, let me know. I'm not a graphic of any kind so I can't paint it myself. Thanks.

[huth]

Map from Battle for Middle-earth(without location icons, suitable for Med castles maybe?): http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=277511
Very big white-black map(replacing white with some stylish parchment texture would be good): http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/4878.jpg

These are too small, I think: http://earing.80port.net/images/maps...le%20Earth.jpg , http://www.ardalibrary.net/pictures/maps/pmap.jpg

What are you planning?

[Stazi]

Thank you very much. I should have started with twcenter. The other maps looks interesting too (I need a lot of names - provinces, towns/castles, etc).

What are you planning?

I try to put together the remainings of ME:TW mod. If I get the permission from the author maybe I'll share my work with the community here. If not it will be my home mod.

btw I can't find any release (even beta) of Silmarillion:TW. Theoretically, the project is only suspended but 3 years past since last message so I think it's canceled. It's a pity because those two mods was nearly finished (judging by the posts). I'll be grateful if someone can send me the remainings of Silmarillion:TW. I'm sure some units will fit into third age too.

[huth]

Yeah, that's a shame that those mods weren't released, the units were incredible.
Nice to hear that someone wants to do something with that! :P
If you need some help, I can do something(testing, graphics).

[Stazi]

We (me and huth) are working on revival of Middle Earth mod and I'd like to know if there are any people still interested?
We made entirely new campaign map with 119 land and sea regions. Two days ago I've finally managed to make a campaign working without too many CTDs. Now I'm slowly transferring graphics made by ME:TW team. I'm still learning about MTW mechanics so it's not an easy process.

The other problem is that I don't know the whole idea behind the mod so some things look really strange. For example: 8 trade goods which were made signs of capitals for 8 "nations" (Elves, Dwarfs, Gondor, Rohan, Harad, Isengard, Mordor, Orcs)!? All other trade goods were removed. New tech tree with about 30 new buildings but not even one word of description, info pics etc. So... if you know someone who was a member of the METW team or one of the beta testers please let me know. I've tried to contact via PM the last active mod creator (christof139) few weeks ago but no answer till now. Eventually, we'll have to make whole tech tree from the scratch.

Hmm... I'm just thinking about the faith and how to convert all hardcoded faith related things to fit the middle-earth e.g. zeal, catholic/muslim rebellions, etc. If you know how to cover this, please, let me know. Generally, any ideas are welcomed!

[Raz]

never worked with the original modders, but from my perspective it was clear that they were really trying to push the mechanics of the game.

IIRC, the 8 trade goods are actually resources (you gotta make this distinction), resources determine what buildings can be constructed in the province via the build_prod. It makes for an excellent way of representing the distinctive cultures in the middle earth universe.

For example: suppose i want to limit the construction of elven buildings in the original elven regions, I'd make all elven buildings require say the "gold" resource, and then add that resource to the regions i want to limit the constructions to. Then it's a simple process of rename "gold" to "elven culture" (or whatever) and giving it a new icon. BANG easy construction limits based on a resources in the form of "culture".

Now as for their tech tree, it was a very, very rudimentary proof-of-concept work-in-progress. ;)
They'd built their building tree as a bit of a skeleton for each faction, they were pretty much carbon copies of each other. E.g. The men of gondor get a temple that gives a morale boost, so do the evil men - same building, same function, different name, different picture. (note this is an example, i can't actually remember if such a building existed)

It was very basic, very unpolished and they tried creating it far too rigid in my eyes. Everything was far too equal and balanced, if it was completed, i think the concept behind this ultra-rigid, carbon-copied skeleton would've made for no challenge playing as any faction. Each would've been too equal and samey. Not very interesting (at least with the tech-tree on the campaign map --- the actual units were quite diverse and very nice).

Zeal can further represent patriotism, faith can be a ratio/measurement of the cultures in the region, conflicting "religions" represent conflicting cultures and naturally disputes and uprisings/rebellions will occur. Too easy! :D

I recommend rebuilding the tech tree, but i liked the concept behind the resources and the intentions that they had for them, as my knowledge has it, no released mod has used a similar feature like this.

As you might've guessed, I for one am interested in this mod. Keep at it.

- Hope this post helps you both Stazi and huth.

[Stazi]

IIRC, the 8 trade goods are actually resources (you gotta make this distinction), resources determine what buildings can be constructed in the province via the build_prod. It makes for an excellent way of representing the distinctive cultures in the middle earth universe.

For example: suppose i want to limit the construction of elven buildings in the original elven regions, I'd make all elven buildings require say the "gold" resource, and then add that resource to the regions i want to limit the constructions to. Then it's a simple process of rename "gold" to "elven culture" (or whatever) and giving it a new icon. BANG easy construction limits based on a resources in the form of "culture".

Thanks for the info Raz!

I know the idea of limiting training area by resources but I'd like to know what they were thinking about goods e.g.:

SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_18 METWElvesCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_56 METWEreborCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_40 METWGondorCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_37 METWHaradCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_19 METWIsengardCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_54 METWMordorCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_23 METWOrcCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_26 METWRohanCapital

No other goods were specified. They made them this way only to increase the income from capitals? Maybe these goods were just signs of something else. It really bothers me. Can we use goods for something else than increase income?

Now as for their tech tree, it was a very, very rudimentary proof-of-concept work-in-progress. ;)
They'd built their building tree as a bit of a skeleton for each faction, they were pretty much carbon copies of each other. E.g. The men of gondor get a temple that gives a morale boost, so do the evil men - same building, same function, different name, different picture. (note this is an example, i can't actually remember if such a building existed)

It was very basic, very unpolished and they tried creating it far too rigid in my eyes. Everything was far too equal and balanced, if it was completed, i think the concept behind this ultra-rigid, carbon-copied skeleton would've made for no challenge playing as any faction. Each would've been too equal and samey. Not very interesting (at least with the tech-tree on the campaign map --- the actual units were quite diverse and very nice).

It looks exactly as you said. The units are great and that's why I started to think about the campaign. I didn't think too much about making new tech tree till now. So.. if you have any ideas how should it look like feel free to post.

Zeal can further represent patriotism, faith can be a ratio/measurement of the cultures in the region, conflicting "religions" represent conflicting cultures and naturally disputes and uprisings/rebellions will occur. Too easy! :D

Another good idea. thanks

Below some examples how the map looks at the current stage (TBFME map modified by huth). It still needs some improvements e.g. it's too dark and border lines are hardly visible. I think we'll make pixels near the border lines a little brighter. VI minimap is a placeholder until we'll be sure that main map is the final version. There are some known places made like the Malta or Rhodes in original MTW. Some of them are dead ends like Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith and some are passable like Khazad-dum or Lonely Mountain. They'll have their own siege and battle maps attached (like it was designed by METW team).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

TO EVERYONE:

If you like the idea of playing a mod such this, please, post some comments/ideas. We are fairly new to modding MTW and any type of help/feedback is welcomed.
Some issues i can think of:
- as you probably noticed English is not my native language. We'll surely need help with units', buildings' descriptions. Orcish and Elvish native speakers are wanted too
- we need Tolkien expert. Some related issues - lack of forenames, surnames (especially for Harad), heroes/famous kings for all factions, best timeframe for mod, etc.

[gollum]

Hello Stazi,
i'll try to contribute in this thread as time allows, but i can't do at the moment more than that (or more than the promise of that), due to other (non game) commitments.

The mod is a fine idea, and i really wish you good luck with it. Its tough and hard to mod, but also very satisfying, especially when its "done" (or nearly done because you always think that you could do something different)

keep it up and good luck :)

[Leith]

Hello, Stazi! I'm very interested in what you're doing. I am willing to help if needed but only after I'm done with my mod, which should be released in a little while. Meanwhile let me make the following comments:

1-The Rohan faction needs serious overhaul because its main strength, cavalrymen, die easily even to the lowly spear-armed goblins.
A- Solution: Increase the number of men from 40 to 60 or 80, whichever proves more effective through playtesting.
B- Solution: Decrease the anti-cavalry bonus that spear and pike-armed units have.
c- Solution: Create more infantry units for Rohan, especially an Axe or spear-armed unit (probably both) capable of holding the line while cavalrymen flank or charge from behind. Currently, the Rohan horsemen are supposed to break enemy formations headon, which they cannot do.

[Stazi]

Thanks for your offer. Let me know when you'll be ready.
And yes, you're right. Whole unit rooster needs to be tested. IMO Rohan should be like Golden Horde - 80% cavalry of all types: light, heavy,horse archers, javelineers. Infantry - only swordsmen/axemen and archers.

We are currently working on the new tech tree and campaign map pieces. As Raz said, the original tech tree was pretty boring - same buildings for all factions.
Some ideas being discussed:

• changing the factions' recruitment zones from provinces oriented to buildings oriented. Every faction has unique units' rooster. If a faction will be pushed away from their lands, this faction won't be able to build new units. I think, units should be restricted only by "faction association" and "building requirements" columns and these buildings should available everywhere around the map (at least for standard units).
  
  
• unique castles' strategic map icons. METW team made only 6 slightly different castle icons (3 good, 3 evil). We'd like to make one castle upgrades "line" for each faction. The problem is - when we make each castle line restricted to only one faction, it will be totally destroyed when province will be conquered by other faction. Building a castle from the ground every time a province changes the owner... it's not a good idea.
  The other idea is to give 3 levels of the same castle to each faction so we can have 5 factions with their own castles. There are 8 factions now so for example all 4 evil factions will have to share the same castle design.
  
  
• What you think of making a one man, kensai style, elite units for known heroes? It should be interesting to see Aragorn or Elrond fighting Nazgul.

If you know other solutions for the first two points, please, leave a comment.

[gollum]

Hello stazi,
regarding unit dependency, i would certainly make them building dependent only. It's an interesting idea to have unique tech trees for each faction, and so have to build your own infrastructure in every province to make it worthwhile in terms of recruitment to have troops from there.

As you say, i'd avoid teh area of recruitment system. It does not work well in TW because the AI is not aware of it, and that is made only worse by the fact that domination is the usual goal. I tried it for modding the medieval game, and the AI was hopeless with it. That was made worse and worse if you took its logic to the extreme.

So sticking to unique tech trees and building dependencies only is the best imo. I personally would avoid the unique tech trees because that means testing all factions with dufferent tech trees and tweak the dependencies to work - and that would be far far more difficult and time consuming with unique tech trees, even if they are culturally unique (ie you have 3-4). But its your mod and up to you - just wanted to make the point for your benefit. As a player of course, i'd love unique tech trees :)

[huth]

1-The Rohan faction needs serious overhaul because its main strength, cavalrymen, die easily even to the lowly spear-armed goblins.
A- Solution: Increase the number of men from 40 to 60 or 80, whichever proves more effective through playtesting.
B- Solution: Decrease the anti-cavalry bonus that spear and pike-armed units have.
c- Solution: Create more infantry units for Rohan, especially an Axe or spear-armed unit (probably both) capable of holding the line while cavalrymen flank or charge from behind. Currently, the Rohan horsemen are supposed to break enemy formations headon, which they cannot do.

I'm thinking A and B solutions are good. A, because as Rohan based mainly on cavalry, these units should be larger than in armies based on infantry. B - once I modded unit_prod for my campaign making cavalry stronger not by giving better stats, but by decreasing anti-cav bonus for all units other than cav, mostly to negative values. Of course it was very significant change, at last low-tier spearmen didn't hold like supermen against better cav...

[Dol Guldur]

Looks interesting. I've recently got the old metw files for RTW:BI up on TWC if they are of any use (they are open source now), but I have no knowledge as to whether the original metw files for mtw still exist. I'll ask Burns if I see him online. Encaitar disappeared some time ago...

FATW will be listing other Middle-earth mods on its site, so if you have a beta out this year I'll gladly include a link to it.

Best of luck!

[Stazi]

Thanks for your interest. I'll be very grateful if you add link to the RTW version of ME mod. I've tried to search but I found only early 0.7 beta. We can surely use some of the buildings' and units' descriptions, icons, banners, etc. Even info pics can be made from ingame units' screenshots.
I'll be even more grateful if you find someone who has the latest ME:TW files for MTW/VI. All I found is 0.71a version with beta campaign add-on.

I'll surely contact you when we'll have a beta ready. We've started few weeks ago so don't expect anything soon.

[Dol Guldur]

Sure, the RTW/BI version is on the TWC Repository here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=355

I don't see Burns online much (as I'm not online), but I'll ask him if I do or point him to this thread. I think there is little chance there'll be files beyond what you have though.

[Aradan]

Very very interesting! If I wasn't already engaged in a (similar) project, I'd definitely help. For now, I'll just wish you good luck and hope you stick with it.

[drone]

A potential idea would be to use the ship range trick VI uses to allow Valinor to be on the map. More suited to a Silmarillion-era campaign, a way to allow the Eldar to have a play.

I love the maps, btw.

[Dol Guldur]

I spoke with Burns - there is no mtw version of the files for the old me:tw in existence as far as he knows.

[Stazi]

It's a pity but I'm not surprised. Anyway, thanks for your efforts.

[gollum]

Are you working on it then Stazi?

[Stazi]

Not exactly "working". I realized few weeks ago that I don't remember the trilogy enough and I need some inspiration (ideas for buildings mainly). So now I'm reading books and other related stuff, watching movies, etc. I've been busy with my RL life lately too so not much of a progress has been done.
The other things that slightly discouraged me are hardcoded limits. One of my friends is good with C++, assembler and other programming stuff so I gave him a task to find out if there is any possibility to make some changes in the exe and dlls. I don't expect too much but... who knows?

btw Do you think that elves had brothels? What about orcs or dwarves ?

P.S. Thanks for your question. During writing this reply I've come up with a new idea (no, not about brothels). Maybe not a big one but something worth to try.

[gollum]

Gay hotties would be certainly elves and gay hunks dwarves (always such hatreds have homoerotic connotations in depth - see Top Gun for details...) and some sadomaso orcs/urukhai couples ;)

You're welcome, RL always comes first, take it easy :)

[HopAlongBunny]

Good luck with this :)

In the "Best Idea Never to See the Light of Day" category this is/was #1 imho.

[Stazi]

Hello again. I've just came up with the new idea and I'd like to know your opinion.

I'm going to make each "good" faction corruptable. For example Rohan, after conquering Isengard, will be able to construct a special unique building that gives access to new tech tree and units like goblins and Uruk-Hais. There will be some disadvantages of this e.g.: losing access to the Rohirrim's high-endunits, buildings, "good" agents, etc. New "bad" units, agents will spread another "faith" so it'll cause a drop in loyalty/happiness. "Bad" buildings will directly reduce province's happiness too. That special, unique building will be indestructible so there will be no way back (of course except losing a province with that building). I think it should be like highest difficulty level.
Places where factions can get corrupted:
Rohan - Isengard
Elves - Dol Guldur
Dwarves - Moria and/or Mt. Gundabad.
Gondor - Cirith Ungol and/or Angbad
All factions - Barad Dur

As I said it's just an idea so let me know what you think.

[gollum]

Hello Stazi,
wouldn it be more plausible with the Middle Earth universe to have say corrupted Rohirim for Isengard once Saruman conqueres Rohan etc? I mean for the evil side to corrupt the good side factions once they are conquered. The good side, may perhaps call upon ancient, pre-existing powers once they free a place from the evil power's spell by conquering it - say Saruman returns to the good side, for example, or his power is used to double that of Gandalf.

AFAIK, in Tolkien's world, evil has no substance of itself and appears to be as a coruption of good - hence Orcs are Elves fallen to the shadow etc.

[gollum]

Stazi, one idea for battlefield gameplay thath may (or may not :) interest you.

While Rohirim certainly get casualties by Urukai and orc pikemen, these are still unable to stop the charge on its tracks. If you maintain the rank bonuses for MTW spears to model such units this will not happen because a unit designated as "spear" in the unitprod file always stops the charge dead on its tracks.

A way around this is to have spear units, edsignate them as swords in the unit_prod and give them non-rank anticav bonuses for attack and defence. In this way, these units will not stop the charge while still being more effective than others against cavalry. This is a feature in the Sam Wars mod, spears there function this way.

[Stazi]

AFAIK, in Tolkien's world, evil has no substance of itself and appears to be as a coruption of good - hence Orcs are Elves fallen to the shadow etc.

It doesn't have to be a general evil substance. I've been thinking of powerful evil places/artifacts like the one ring that corrupted Isildur or Saruman corrupted by Sauron via palantir. It's not a corruption of whole faction but the leader.

wouldn it be more plausible with the Middle Earth universe to have say corrupted Rohirim for Isengard once Saruman conqueres Rohan etc? I mean for the evil side to corrupt the good side factions once they are conquered. The good side, may perhaps call upon ancient, pre-existing powers once they free a place from the evil power's spell by conquering it - say Saruman returns to the good side, for example, or his power is used to double that of Gandalf.

While it's a very good idea I can't imagine how to do this in terms of game mechanics. All we have are build_prod and unit_prod files. It's not easy to make such a tech tree change for faction a player actually controls, not to mention another faction. You can for example connect all units with one building in Isengard. Faction conquering Isengard will free the Saruman from the evil but it will work for every faction, not for good ones only.

While Rohirim certainly get casualties by Urukai and orc pikemen, these are still unable to stop the charge on its tracks. If you maintain the rank bonuses for MTW spears to model such units this will not happen because a unit designated as "spear" in the unitprod file always stops the charge dead on its tracks.

A way around this is to have spear units, edsignate them as swords in the unit_prod and give them non-rank anticav bonuses for attack and defence. In this way, these units will not stop the charge while still being more effective than others against cavalry. This is a feature in the Sam Wars mod, spears there function this way.

Great idea, thanks. Another approach is to give cavalry rank bonuses. This way heavy cavalry can beat the spearmen/pikemen units in frontal assaults (like winged hussars in Pike & Musket mod).

[gollum]

Hello Stazi,
regarding the corruption of good side factions being conquered, there could be corrupted versions of their units with homeland edsignation (say for corrupted Rohirim only Rohan provinces) and faction designation (say only Isengard can get them). In terms of building dependency they could be made from either Rohan buildings left over or from regular Isengard buildings but only in the appropriate provinces as stated before.

[Cyprian2]

Love your ideas, Stazi and huth (plus, the map is astounding). I'm glad to see this mod from the Elder Days is being revived. (Hope it's still progressing, btw...) I'd be glad to offer my services for building/unit/faction descriptions when you've come to the point where such things are required. Feel free to PM me. Until then, best regards. I will be keeping an eye on this.

[Stazi]

Thanks for the offer Cyprian. I'll surely PM you when I'll have something a little playable. I'm still not sure if I have enough time and enthusiasm to finish this mod so I don't want to waste your time.

Now I'm focusing on tech tree and units rooster. I'll probably release an alpha version (without any new music and limited gfx) for those who would like to help me with gameplay and balance tests. btw Middle-Earth economy, income from different regions, tradeable goods, etc. are a mystery to me. Does anyone know where I can find such a detailed information? Maybe someone who has an experience with LOTR mods for Rome or MTW2 could help me with this? (I don't like 3D strategic map so I rarely play new TWs).