Civil War in Libya

[TinCow]

nobody in the army defected as far as I know, why are they so well-armed

Many army units defected. Air Force and Navy as well.

[Noncommunist]

'Us' is us non-Libyans. Dunno what gotten into Sarkozy I am completely puzzled over what we are to ackomplish there. These rebels hold out pretty well the army who are they anyway, nobody in the army defected as far as I know, why are they so well-armed

Actually, he's wronged quite a few non-Libyans over the past few years. Invaded parts of Chad and Egypt and got driven back. Supported Idi Amin's invasion of Tanzania which was also driven back. And he's also supported terrorists around the world. He got better in the past few years but he's definitely wronged a few non-Libyans.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Plus had a few failed assassination attempts and a few successful assassinations/disappearances carried out around the globe. Why do you think Lebanon is so eager to support this intervention?

[Viking]

A story from The Telegraph detailing the crash-landing of the US fighter jet, fitting right into the pro-interventionist propaganda machinery.

Hmm, something not quite as charming reported at Channel4:

EXCLUSIVE: Six villagers in a field on the outskirts of Benghazi were shot and injured when a US helicopter landed to rescue a crew member from the crashed jet, reports Lindsey Hilsum.
Channel 4 News International Editor, Lindsey Hilsum, says that the villagers were shot when a US helicopter picked up the pilot who had ejected from the F-15E Eagle plane after it experienced a mechanical failure.

The US aircraft crashed on Monday night and was found in a field outside Benghazi and landed in rebel-held territory.

The local Libyans who were injured in the rescue mission are currently in hospital. They are the first confirmed casualities of allied operations, almost four days after operations began. At the time of writing, no one had died as a result of the gunfire.

Wonder what the justifications are.

EDIT: found this in the twitter feed of a Telegraph journalist:

It was a second jet that opened fire, wounding locals, according to the witnesses. Not the rescue helicopter

That should explain it.

[HoreTore]

'Us' is us non-Libyans. Dunno what gotten into Sarkozy I am completely puzzled over what we are to ackomplish there. These rebels hold out pretty well the army who are they anyway, nobody in the army defected as far as I know, why are they so well-armed

Almost the entire army stationed in the east has defected. Also, all the equipment there is now in the hands of the rebels. In addition to that, individual Lybians have bought a ton of weapons in Egypt and handed them out to the population.

As for wronging non-lybians... Gaffy saw himself as the Che Guavara of his time, and wanted to emulate him. How he went about that was to invite every crack-pot group on the planet who opposed a government. The red army fraction, IRA, palestinian groups, latin rebels, various african rebel groups, maoist groups in Asia, etc etc, the list is nearly infinite. They were all provided with a safe haven in Libya, as well as weapons, funds and other assistance. This is why a lot of countries oppose him with a passion, because he funded their local terrorists, and also why he has so strong support in a lot of countries as well, as those he helped who succeeded naturally have a thing for him.

[Major Robert Dump]

....And some of the first casualties are civilians...shot from the air. This is why actions like this don't work if your true and real intention is to protect civilians. Didn't work in Iraw pre-9/11 and didn't work in belgrade. Either put a brigade on the ground in Libya and do it right or get the F out of the business.

[PanzerJaeger]

This thing seems to be turning more and more toxic by the hour.

The Western allies yesterday struggled to find a coherent strategy in Libya as Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's forces renewed attacks on rebel strongholds despite a no-fly zone and a fourth day of allied strikes against government military targets. In Washington, top officials insisted the US intended to hand over command of the operation to its allies within days, but wrangling within Nato continued yesterday along with confusion over what the mission was increasingly clear that despite the scale of the damage inflicted on Colonel Gaddafi's forces, the rebels were highly unlikely to achieve a military victory.

In London, a Government minister acknowledged the crisis could end in stalemate, and partition of the country. "A stable outcome where they weren't killing each other would, in a sense, be one way of achieving the humanitarian objective," the armed forces minister Nick Harvey told the BBC.

Despite their rush to arms, no one in Europe seems to want to take the lead on this one.

NATO Discord

The question of who assumes leadership in a U.S. handoff was unresolved, as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization inconclusively discussed whether to take charge. Norway and Italy said their participation in air operations depends on settling who will be in command.

France proposed a new political steering committee, outside NATO, take responsibility, Foreign Minister Alain Juppe told lawmakers in Paris, according to Agence France Press. Wrangling over the alliance’s possible role in the four-day-old air campaign had exposed divisions over the command structure and strategy for the fight against Qaddafi.

President Barack Obama, speaking in Santiago, Chile, yesterday said the U.S. would hand off its leadership role “in a matter of days, not a matter of weeks.”

“This command-and-control business is complicated, and we haven’t done something like this kind of on-the-fly before,” U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates told reporters in Moscow today. “It’s not surprising to me that it would take a few days to get it all sorted out.”

War Costs

The cost of initial U.S. strikes against Libyan air defenses exceeds $168 million, including the use of Raytheon Co (RTN) Tomahawk cruise missiles and Northrop Grumman Co. long-range B-2 bombers, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne told lawmakers in London today that the cost of U.K. operations in Libya are likely to run into “tens of millions of pounds” and that it will be met by the Treasury’s reserve fund, not the Ministry of Defense’s budget.

[rory_20_uk]

It's not as simple as "no one wants to take the leasd" it's also different people want different things to take the lead: Italy insits it's NATO, the arab league insists it's not. France wants to take the lead to appear important before elections, others don't want them to.

Understandably, some countries would like to know what the hell is going on before flying.

[TinCow]

Despite their rush to arms, no one in Europe seems to want to take the lead on this one.

As I understand it, the French want to take the lead... it's just that not everyone wants to follow them.

[Idaho]

What many on this thread are neglecting is the tribal and historical roots of this conflict.



The uprising is very much in the old province of Cyrenaica. The flag the rebels are waving is the flag of the former King of Libya, a Cyrenaican. He used to rule giving Cyrenaica the biggest portion and Tripolitana the least. Also there was widespread prejudice against the black Fezzans. A prejudice that remains strong in the East today. This was reversed under Gaddafi. With Tripolitana being favoured and Cyrenaica being hung out to dry. It's said that Benghazi, a city of one million, pumps sewage directly into the sea as the infrastructure is so poor.

Gaddafi actually did a fair amount to reduce prejudice and encorporate Fezzans into Libya. Hence their large scale presence in his armies. When a Tripolitanan or a Fezzan see the Cyrenaican flag, they won't necessarily see liberation. It's a sticky situation and needs to be played very carefully.

[rory_20_uk]

So, it's three seperate areas with almost nothing in common bar mutual distrust and dislike. It's been held together by a strong man for the last 40 years.

Sounds familiar... Rather like Iraq or the Ottoman Empire.

Turn a frown upside down - if there is a natural part that the rebels hold that is a "sensible" division, get it recognised as an independant country and job done. Sudan is another recent case where a large country with no unifying reson detre bar force has finally split. Why not this one too? From what Idaho is saying, if the Rebels were to win they would probably start to favour themselves over the other two areas as was the case previously.

[HoreTore]

......Or likr the United Kingdom, rory?

[Strike For The South]

That's funny

Why would 3 distinict regions join together to form one country?

[Banquo's Ghost]

......Or likr the United Kingdom, rory?

No, not remotely like the United Kingdom. The UK is a representative democracy held together by an elected Parliament which has shared its powers through devolution to the constituent kingdoms within. The vast majority of its people are reasonably happy with the movement so far (not the Cornish, obviously ).

[rory_20_uk]

......Or likr the United Kingdom, rory?

I'd not shed a tear to see Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland go their own way. Of the three, Scotland would have something approaching a functioning economy. The other two are verging on being basket cases. What would England be loosing? A flag that initially there was uproar over as it was replacing the English flag, some naval ports in Scotland for the ships we no longer have and... that's about it.

It'd be good to have English politicians in Westminster and others in their respective parliments, rather than the current duplication.

[Strike For The South]

Those Celts have no idea how good they have it

Bloody ingrates



Edit: And after seeing Welsh women I'd porbably lean more towards genocide, sheep are more preferable to those ghastly creatures

Which means all those jokes make sense to me now

[rory_20_uk]

That's funny

Why would 3 distinict regions join together to form one country?

That's how empires are formed isn't it? You don't just take what's yours, you take all that others can stop you from taking (e.g. New Mexico, Texas etc...) I am sure to some it might surprise some how much of the southern states of America was annexed from Mexico.

Although the Cornish do demand their independence more than most other areas, I do not know the percentage that wants it. Is it 90%, or a vocal 2%? Either way, good luck to surviving without the money that flows from the rest of the UK - although now the could exchange teats for the EU.

[Idaho]

That's funny

Why would 3 distinict regions join together to form one country?

The map perpetuates the lie imposed over a hundred years ago by European cartographers. They created straight line borders based on lines of lattitude and longitude. These places are largely desert. Tribes would have traditionally had areas where they traded, rested, grazed, etc. But these people were nomadic. They wouldn't have recognised (and indeed still don't recognise) these borders. It's only by the coast where you would have got fixed settlements.

[Viking]

What many on this thread are neglecting is the tribal and historical roots of this conflict.



The uprising is very much in the old province of Cyrenaica. The flag the rebels are waving is the flag of the former King of Libya, a Cyrenaican. He used to rule giving Cyrenaica the biggest portion and Tripolitana the least. Also there was widespread prejudice against the black Fezzans. A prejudice that remains strong in the East today. This was reversed under Gaddafi. With Tripolitana being favoured and Cyrenaica being hung out to dry. It's said that Benghazi, a city of one million, pumps sewage directly into the sea as the infrastructure is so poor.

Gaddafi actually did a fair amount to reduce prejudice and encorporate Fezzans into Libya. Hence their large scale presence in his armies. When a Tripolitanan or a Fezzan see the Cyrenaican flag, they won't necessarily see liberation. It's a sticky situation and needs to be played very carefully.

I think you should tak a closer look at what's actually going on. The old flag has been flown in both Tripoli and Zawiya, most certainly in Misurata too - though it is not so easy to get images from the city. All the big revolting cities appear to be pretty united in their revolts - though I haven't seen reports from all the cities in the country. My challenge to you, is to find evidence of a newer date suggesting a split (the imbalance when it comes the number of rebel held cities, comparing west to east, may seemingly be easily explained by the fact the cities in the west lies considerably closer the loyal "elite" armies with their bases in Tripoli).

[rory_20_uk]

Currently everyone wants Gadaffi out. I imagine the old flag is a symbol of wanting him out, rather than a detailed understanding of life under the previous ruler. What percentage of the coutry's populace was even alive back in those days? Pretty small - and fewer old enough to really be able to offer an opinion.

As soon as he is out... probably a different story - the "Allies" wanted the Axis destroyed. As soon as he was they were almost instantly vying with each other.

[Viking]

I have seen no one signaling that they want the old Libya back - flag's just a flag. The rebels in Benghazi wants Tripoli as the capital of the country, so they are hesitant about putting up too much of a new government there.

EDIT: Uh, I appear to have to have misread rory's post..

[drone]

Can't even get a simple police action right.

[Idaho]

What percentage of the coutry's populace was even alive back in those days? Pretty small - and fewer old enough to really be able to offer an opinion.

It's a fair point. The population is very young in Libya.

[gaelic cowboy]

Although the Cornish do demand their independence more than most other areas, I do not know the percentage that wants it. Is it 90%, or a vocal 2%? Either way, good luck to surviving without the money that flows from the rest of the UK - although now the could exchange teats for the EU.

Doesnt that have a legal point about it or something, I seem to remember reading somewhere I think it could have been in the Independent that Cornwall and the counties next to it were never formally joined to the UK??

[Banquo's Ghost]

Doesnt that have a legal point about it or something, I seem to remember reading somewhere I think it could have been in the Independent that Cornwall and the counties next to it were never formally joined to the UK??

No legal point at all. Cornwall was only the rump of the Celtic Dumnonii pushed back into the far west by the Saxon expansion. It was effectively England from about 800 AD, unlike Wales where the remnant Celts established tribal areas outside the control of the Mercians, only conquered by the Normans and then subsumed into England (eventually the UK).

There's about five people in Cornwall that truly want independence and that only when their medication wears off.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Doesnt that have a legal point about it or something, I seem to remember reading somewhere I think it could have been in the Independent that Cornwall and the counties next to it were never formally joined to the UK??

That's a myth, they were all annexed by about 900 AD. Cornwall's independance claims lie with it's Stanery Parliament, when it was afforded a degree of Independance because of its Tin deposits. Sort of like an early form of Trade-Unionism.

[gaelic cowboy]

I not too sure there is something about the rights of the local Lord under the system Britain had before Henry mark 8 not been formally relinquished, didnt the sorta have a relationship like the Isle of Man until maybe 12/13 century

The question of Cornwall's constitutional status as a de facto county of England, as established by the Local Government Act 1888, a Duchy, i.e. the Duchy of Cornwall established in 1337 by Edward III of England for his son, Edward, Prince of Wales, or another constitutional entity of the United Kingdom is a complex one. In recent years there has been cross-party recognition of the issue at least as far as the calls for a Cornish Assembly are concerned. In addition there are also groups and individuals, including the Revived Cornish Stannary Parliament, the Cornish Constitutional Convention,[64] and John Angarrack,[67] who reject the present constitutional status of Cornwall, denying the legality of Cornwall's current administration as a county of England, and Cornwall's relationship to the Duchy of Cornwall.

I pulled that from wiki but I know there is some messy old leagl thingy somewhere I just cant for the life remember where I saw it.

That's a myth, they were all annexed by about 900 AD. Cornwall's independance claims lie with it's Stanery Parliament, when it was afforded a degree of Independance because of its Tin deposits. Sort of like an early form of Trade-Unionism.

Not neccessarily, Ireland was invaded but still had it's own parliment under the King therefore that meant Ireland had a relationship with the King and not the English parliment, in practice of course that did not happen and was finally removed with the Act of Union.

[Tellos Athenaios]

There's about five people in Cornwall that truly want independence and that only when their medication wears off.

Well there are only like 5 people on the whole of Sark and same goes for other such dependencies... but they get what they want.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I not too sure there is something about the rights of the local Lord under the system Britain had before Henry mark 8 not been formally relinquished, didnt the sorta have a relationship like the Isle of Man until maybe 12/13 century



I pulled that from wiki but I know there is some messy old leagl thingy somewhere I just cant for the life remember where I saw it.



Not neccessarily, Ireland was invaded but still had it's own parliment under the King therefore that meant Ireland had a relationship with the King and not the English parliment, in practice of course that did not happen and was finally removed with the Act of Union.

Ireland was a Kingdom in its own right, Cornwall was really just a wilderness before it was nominally shired, there's a bit about this in the English version of the Polychronicon when the English translator goes on a bit of a rant about how Cornwall hasn't been included in a list of shires.

His name was Jon Trevisa, he was writing in 1387.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am going to have to speak to Sarkozy about a bombing campaign over London on behalf of Cornwall. Nothing says re-election quite like scared, running Englishmen. Didn't even get to see any of that in this year's Six Nations, I need my annual quota.

The map perpetuates the lie imposed over a hundred years ago by European cartographers. They created straight line borders based on lines of lattitude and longitude.

One should never underestimate the power of tribal affiliation, nationalism, regionalism. I don't know the extent of the role these play in the conflict.

But the division of North Africa into 'Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli' is not a European invention, but an Ottoman one, adopted by France and Italy. Libya was ruled as a single entity by the Ottomans for centuries. One can't blame it all on three decades of European modernisation and massive investments, erm, colonialism.