KH underperforming units

[Jacke]

While playing the Koinon, I found some units underperform compared to others of about the same cost or cheaper. I've done tests with them 1-on-1 against other Greek units so I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

Ekdromoi Hoplitai

I can use them to run down skirmishers, but even the cheaper Hoplitai Haploi seem to chew them up.

Iphikratous Hoplitai & Thorakitai Hoplitai

These guys seem to be a poor choice versus taking Thureophoroi and Thorakitai respectively.

[vartan]

Hoplitai Haploi are highly trained and have more mass than the simply trained Ekdromoi.

Iph. Hoplitai and Tho. Hoplitai are javelin-less units, yet they have swords. The Tho. Hoplitai have armour piercing swords, as a matter of fact. Simple Thureophoroi and Thorakitai, on the other hand, are simply javelin-wielding spear units. This means you are looking at a case of differences in the function of these various units. If you ignore the javelins and the swords, and look at the rest of the statistical values, you will see that in melee spear combat, the Iph. and Tho. Hoplitai win over the Thureo. and Thorak. This is, again, due to higher levels of training and mass.

[william weedzor]

But even you somehow forget to say what is their purpose,Vartan:). I mean Iphikratous Hoplitai and Thorakitai Hoplitai.

Iphikratous Hoplitai do well on walls,both in attack and defense,propably due to their high lethality swords.

Thorakitai Hoplitai?Anyone know?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

But even you somehow forget to say what is their purpose,Vartan:). I mean Iphikratous Hoplitai and Thorakitai Hoplitai.

Iphikratous Hoplitai do well on walls,both in attack and defense,propably due to their high lethality swords.

Thorakitai Hoplitai?Anyone know?

Thorakitai Hoplitai are the only anti-armor units the KH has access to in southern Greece. They are really resilient and cut through armored units pretty well.

[Drag0nUL]

But even you somehow forget to say what is their purpose,Vartan:). I mean Iphikratous Hoplitai and Thorakitai Hoplitai.

Iphikratous Hoplitai do well on walls,both in attack and defense,propably due to their high lethality swords.

Thorakitai Hoplitai?Anyone know?

Since they have AP swords, I assume they work best vs other heavy units.

[Ca Putt]

don't use ekdromoi as Hoplites,Haploi can hold the line much better for less mnai, use them as flankers, cavalry catchers and pseudo cavalry as long as you don't have better flankers and real cavalry. as soon as you have some regiments of thureoporoi, and some lonchophoroi or Xystophoroi squads they are mostly obsolete, catching enemy cavalry in open formation remains the only thing they are probably the most effective cav catcher(exept for cav^^) as they lack the secondary weapon, are cheap and pretty fast/hardy.

reformed Hoplites were never two of my favorite units eventho at one occasion they really suprised me(positively) that was when mercenary Iph.s were the only "heavy" troop the mercenary pool had.
in open field both are inferior to more specialized troops the Koinon actually has in most roles. on walls and in cities(when their swords come to play yet they still can hold a road against the odds) both are the units of choice for the KH.

In both cases the reason for their apparent inferiority is the general attitude of the KH(and the romans btw) towards army composition:
several similar unspecialized units complement each other and can replace each other in the midst of battle and thus work great in combination. on first sight this may not appeal to everyone but has proved to be quite effective.

Hoplitai with ekdromoi, peltastai with thureophoroi and iphs, hasthati with princeps ...

ps: and apart from reformed hoplites the Hellens have few own swordwielders, which can be quite depressing when fighting hords of bataroas :(

[william weedzor]

Since they have AP swords, I assume they work best vs other heavy units.

But most of you know same well as i do that melee AP ability is overestimated.At least in single player,battles there are simply resolved by different means.

And they are even worse in multiplayer.They cant stand 1 vs 1 against marian cohorts,they cant stand 1 vs 1 against various 120 elites,they cant even stand 1 vs 1 against arabian light infantry (tested in MP) and they deffinetly cant beat pezhetairoi or any elite phalanx.In same time they are in danger from enemy AP units.

And their stats are also not exactly amazing,lethality is not good.Not for their purpose as AP killers.

Only thing they do well is fighting against another hoplitai units,which are mainly KH units or at least Hoplitai armies were most expected from KH.

I just dont think their AP ability makes them battle-worthy for multiplayer due to their obvious inferiority against their targets and in the same time they are really not necessary in single player.

Perhaps its just my illusion but they dont apper to much in AARs or in suprisingly good units thread,so perhaps my opinion about them is not too much "noob".But lets keep that option in game for a while.Because i do act like noob sometimes:)

[vollorix]

Put this guys in shildwall formation and you will see how well they´d perform :) But this is, of course, the prerogaty of BI.exe only...
Hoplitai Thorakitai, along with any thureos bearing units do not fit as line units, imo; due to their smaller shield they are vulnurable to missile fire, especially the Roman pilas. I see Thorakitai of any kind more as shock troops, keep them away from the fight untill the main lines clash, tire the enemy, and then charge from the flanks/rear and enjoy. Ekdromoi are ment to have been designed as anti skirmisher units, and due to their large hoplon shield they are quite usefull even against Peltastai. And if beeing flanked, they can fight cavalry as well, as long as they are not surrounded and charge from behind with shock cavalry.

[vartan]

Engine dynamics doesn't allow for the full potential of virtually all units. Sure, not every soldier need be another Rambo, but one can certainly have a more detailed image in mind of how the battles would progress and play out. Hoplitai turn out to be some of the best troops online, by the way, with 1 chevron upgrade. Their mass plays the biggest role, and everything else becomes secondary (antisocialmunky 2010).

[Cute Wolf]

ps: and apart from reformed hoplites the Hellens have few own swordwielders, which can be quite depressing when fighting hords of bataroas :(

all you need is some haploi and sphendonetai (the best combo to take out everything without much armour)

prepares for multiple heroic victories!

[Ca Putt]

you're right there with sphendotai and haploi the KH probably has the best combo of low tier cheap units. what i was talking about was the feeling that (as swords are more expensive/advanced than spears) literally everybody has more swords than me(KH) eventho I'm probably more advanced and richer at that point of the campaign - spot on gauls, romans and Getai!

and that combo is actually good against almost everything(especially armored ... anything), exept for naked dudes, as they can rout the haploi and due to their second HP and a shield smash the slingers. but well can't have everything huh^^
against botroas classical hoplites plus any ranged unit no problem there

just had a nice costom battle with a Megalē Hellas reformed hoplite based army:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

tarentine elite cav
2x reformed hoplites
1x armored hoplites
1x thorakitai
1x thureophoroi
2x lucanian inf(is it just me or does the KH multiplayer roster lack peltastai?)
1x slingers
1x bruttian infantry
against a comparable camilian army.
Equites consolares
2x Triarii
2x hasthati
2x princeps
2x Pedites Extraordinarii
1x roarii
1x leves
2x samnite hasthati
worked quite well while they actually had a better kill count than my flanking joker(a unit i keep behind my line until the lines are engaged and thus can flank and rout the enemy from one side) a unit of bruttians got by far the lowest kill number(83 compared to 150-190 for reformed hoplites and 307 for cavalry and 207 for slingers)

I have to admit that the ai wasted it's pedexes as second line units m( and engaged my armored hoplites with its triarii(one of them) still it showed to me that - as long as NOT frighting phalanxes - reformed hoplites actually can hold a line for sufficient time while killing more enemies than classical hoplites who can hold out longer. which also makes them far better flankers which is quite usefull with the aforementioned strategy of rolling up the line from one side. when fighting phalanxes their attack bonus sadly is too small to do sufficnet damage to phalanxes whereas their defence malus is just enough to get slaughtered :( - fought a similar battle against the AS in which my whole line routed and I had to defeat the enemy with thureophoroi and lucanians and my cavalry :(

and yes, I have fought similar battles with hoplitai who fare much better agianst AS but slightly worse against the romani.

ps: I think I'll try the same with an ionian army against marian troops soon

[antisocialmunky]

But most of you know same well as i do that melee AP ability is overestimated.At least in single player,battles there are simply resolved by different means.

And they are even worse in multiplayer.They cant stand 1 vs 1 against marian cohorts,they cant stand 1 vs 1 against various 120 elites,they cant even stand 1 vs 1 against arabian light infantry (tested in MP) and they deffinetly cant beat pezhetairoi or any elite phalanx.In same time they are in danger from enemy AP units.

And their stats are also not exactly amazing,lethality is not good.Not for their purpose as AP killers.

Only thing they do well is fighting against another hoplitai units,which are mainly KH units or at least Hoplitai armies were most expected from KH.

I just dont think their AP ability makes them battle-worthy for multiplayer due to their obvious inferiority against their targets and in the same time they are really not necessary in single player.

Perhaps its just my illusion but they dont apper to much in AARs or in suprisingly good units thread,so perhaps my opinion about them is not too much "noob".But lets keep that option in game for a while.Because i do act like noob sometimes:)

They are alright but the Samnite Heavy Infantry are better because you can do the stack attack push trick. Though, against most heavy infantry, all the hoplite units need to be put in shield wall to ground the enemy down. Its just really hard to attack with elite heavy infantry in EB :-\ Also, not many infantry can actually beat post marians unless you tire them first.

[WinsingtonIII]

In terms of versatility, regular Thorakitai and Theurophoroi are much better than Iphrikatous Hoplitai and Thorakitai Hoplitai. Frankly, I don't use them unless I feel like historical roleplaying, because as spear units they are sub-par (always switch to swords when you want spears) and as an armor-piercing unit they are only average. Plus, the Iphikratous are not even armor-piercing, they just have a normal shortsword, which in general are the worst weapons in EB. As for the armor-piercing Thor. Hoplitai, the low lethality (I think it's only .11) of the Kopis means that they are not nearly as effective against armored units as other AP units armed with axes (lethality .165) or rhomphaias (lethality .26). Given your geographic position, you might as well just use Thracian or Celtic mercs and regionals as AP and high-lethality units. I will admit that the Thorakitai Hoplitai do have great morale though.

[antisocialmunky]

Greek Infantry are grinders so Thorakitai Hops does really well vs Romans in guard mode. Theurophoroi, Thorakitai, and Iphs would be more viable with them had the stamina to match similar units form other factions but they don't so they are fail in prolonged melee. However, I believe that the goatee version of the Iphs are very hardy which actually does makes them a more than decent unit for the price.

KH units are pretty much terrible out of guard mode due to crap stamina with low attack and high defense(low attack + high defense imply longer fights in which stamina, morale, and decent stats win over plain good combat stats).

[vartan]

That's why I've seen you bring a lot of Tho Hops to the field online. They each cost just as much as a Marian cohort anyway, if less men.

[jirisys]

While playing the Koinon, I found some units underperform compared to others of about the same cost or cheaper. I've done tests with them 1-on-1 against other Greek units so I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

Ekdromoi Hoplitai

I can use them to run down skirmishers, but even the cheaper Hoplitai Haploi seem to chew them up.

Iphikratous Hoplitai & Thorakitai Hoplitai

These guys seem to be a poor choice versus taking Thureophoroi and Thorakitai respectively.

Moral of the story:

Recruit falxmen/slingers/scythed chariots/horse archers.

~Jirisys ()