An Irish protest

[cmacq]

Given the state of logistics, an army moving into such a region would be attrited to nearly nothing, very soon. Even a Roman Army supported by sea would be aversely affected. To be able to do so for any extended period of time is one thing, but the costs would be enormous and in most cases prohibitive. Then there is the issue of extracting recourses without a formal infrastructure. This is one of the little life-lessens of EB II, wherein human aggregation, such as an army or even a villge, town or city, without a proportional support infrastructure kills, and kills fast. I'm not totally sure how EB II will deal with this, but in EB this was largely handled abstractly. Its not that certain regions or environmental settings were ungovernable, rather the cost of governance was unachievable given the level of demography, technology, and type of economy that prevailed, without the collapse of the power attempting to project its authority. Simple trade with the locals was far more productive. Sorry, but dreams of a ‘One World Order’ must wait future millennia.

Thus, these regions should be places where armies and their stupid leaders go to die.

[vartan]

Total War needs attrition.

[Epimetheus]

Given the state of logistics, an army moving into such a region would be attrited to nearly nothing, very soon. Even a Roman Army supported by sea would be aversely affected. To be able to do so for any extended period of time is one thing, but the costs would be enormous and in most cases prohibitive. Then there is the issue of extracting resources without a formal infrastructure. This is one of the little life-lessons of EB II, wherein human aggregation, such as an army or even a village, town or city, without a proportional support infrastructure kills, and kills fast.

How much money did the average Greek, Roman, or Punic government spend when they colonized places? Was it really so expensive? It seems like there are plenty of examples in history of people just plopping themselves somewhere, and building the local infrastructure from the ground up with no support from the homeland at all.

[Shade]

Will there be many stone fort 'settlements' in the Eremos region, and will they be 'conquerable' by player armies with tangible benefits? Holding key points in, for example, the trans-Saharan trade routes would be a nice risky income-boost. In regions such as Scotland and Ireland the financial benefits would be minimal, so perhaps a fort would be good only for attracting hordes of barbarians away from invading your territory (wait, where do they live then?).

Looking forward to seeing Ghanese bandits spawning in all sorts of odd places!

[Ludens]

How much money did the average Greek, Roman, or Punic government spend when they colonized places? Was it really so expensive? It seems like there are plenty of examples in history of people just plopping themselves somewhere, and building the local infrastructure from the ground up with no support from the homeland at all.

Colonization was usually a private initiative, not something organized by the state. So it wasn't that expensive in terms of money, but that's also because the manpower was free. Also, colonists tended to stick to the coast, which makes the logistics a great deal easier.

This is not comparable to supporting an invasion force. I don't know how big the average start-up colony was, but I guess the population could be counted in hundreds rather than thousands. The colonists would also devote all their time to building up infrastructure and agriculture/fishing.

A Roman consular army was several times bigger and arrives over a sort period, so local food supply would suddenly become hopelessly inadequate. Foraging is no option: the army will quickly deplete local resources and has to move on. This is less of a problem if you can supply by sea, but what if the army has to move inland? Good luck getting sufficient ox-carts in place at such short notice. Also, the further you move inland, the more troops you have to detach to guard your supply line.

None of this is impossible with good organization and sufficient ships and manpower. The army can build infrastructure if necessary, and local tribes can be hired to protect the supplies. So an ambitious Emperor could certainly conquer Ireland if he wanted to. But why would he? If the western area was indeed almost uninhabited, landing an army there would be like using a wrecking ball to swat at flies; nor was there anything that could pay for such an expense. And it wasn't like the Empire lacked troublesome neighbours.

[oudysseos]

Ludens makes an excellent point, and I just wanted to point out another good source: The Teaching Company's Rome and the Barbarians by Tulane Professor Kenneth Harl: in one of the lectures he floats the idea that at least one reason that the Antonine wall was abandoned after only 20 years was that it was much more expensive to feed and maintain the garrisons than it was further south.

[Olaf The Great]

My main and perhaps only issue with this is that it will make borders look really stupid and awkward.

[vollorix]

Who cares about some lines on strategy map? The most important difference of EB as a mod was the atmosphere. Roleplaying the characters, listening to the troop responces on the battlefield in their native ( authentic sounding ) language, and even becoming some small quests/reform challenges, thus making it an experience instead of just a strategy game! The limitations of the engine make historical accuracy sometimes turn out to be an oddness, instead of pleasure, but that only if you left the path of the roleplaying, drafting toward a ( total ) war strategy game.
I still do believe that the best way to create an authentic campaign for a faction would be to make a "local" campaign for each faction within their historical boarders + advancments, and that no "general" campaign would be ever able to reach such grade of detail. But that would mean one would have to make, at least, 20 ( RTW ) different versions of EB for each and every faction, which is a little bit to much to expect from a team which doesn´t make mods for living, i guess.. ;)

[cmacq]

Will there be many stone fort 'settlements' in the Eremos region, and will they be 'conquerable' by player armies with tangible benefits? Holding key points in, for example, the trans-Saharan trade routes would be a nice risky income-boost. In regions such as Scotland and Ireland the financial benefits would be minimal, so perhaps a fort would be good only for attracting hordes of barbarians away from invading your territory (wait, where do they live then?).

Looking forward to seeing Ghanese bandits spawning in all sorts of odd places!

Actually, northern Alba controlled much of the northern European trade in ivory and seal skin.

[cmacq]

How much money did the average Greek, Roman, or Punic government spend when they colonized places? Was it really so expensive? It seems like there are plenty of examples in history of people just plopping themselves somewhere, and building the local infrastructure from the ground up with no support from the homeland at all.

You might want to relook your Greek, Roman, or Punic examples as wherever they settled there were large native popultions with well developed community infrastructures. I can give two examples were these infrastructure were absant Erie and Alba. Another example is Germania, but here there was an infrastructure, it was simply incompatible.

[Shade]

Actually, northern Alba controlled much of the northern European trade in ivory and seal skin.

So there were enough people living in an organised enough fashion to trade in goods on a continental scale, but not enough to avoid 'uninhabited wasteland'?

[cmacq]

So there were enough people living in an organised enough fashion to trade in goods on a continental scale, but not enough to avoid 'uninhabited wasteland'?

I fear, such debating skills leave much to be desired, as the clear call for evidence was well stated. As for the point thus raised, for example, the words 'uninhabited' nor 'wasteland' were never used. Again, it was stated that 'Alba controlled the northern European trade in ivory and seal skin.' Herein, the word 'trade' was not used as a verb (the act of exchange), but rather as a noun, with the intent to denote the informal procurement (as per clan or family Hunts) and initially exchange (clans and foreign traders/emporium) of said items, followed by their passage into the formal continental markets. In theory, this process would have occurred in much the fashion that the Finns of pRIA Finland procured and introduced fur and amber, which eventually made their way into the continental markets.

Again, the call was made for evidence, as words without substance simply fall-flat and lessens the potency of any discussion. Nonetheless, there is no harm in adding ones two cents, if indeed they are constructive.

[Populus Romanus]

I must say, I am impressed by how civil this debate has stayed. Oh crap I jinxed it.

[cmacq]

I must say, I am impressed by how civil this debate has stayed. Oh crap I jinxed it.

What no tongue of Bricriu???

[Cyclops]

Doesn't want to risk the "ban-mjollnir" (sorry don't know any mythical hammers in Celtic lore, just on the Averni shield)). Also I believe the Red Branch reforms take place after the EB period.

Clearly a lot of talk and thought has gone into the province delineation in EB2.

I'm guessing the decision against any more "midnight isles" factions is reflected in the province reduction. Can't wait to see the map previews so we can see where the extra provinces have gone in (guesses madly about Nabataea and India).

Is there any light that can be asked on he extremely salient point about eleutheroi stacks in Eremos? Will there be scripted armies in different slices of the province? Or just a howling empty waste?

[Populus Romanus]

(guesses madly about Nabataea and India).

There is a new Arabian province confirmed: Lihyan, where the southern part of Nabataia was.

[vartan]

There is a new Arabian province confirmed: Lihyan, where the southern part of Nabataia was.

I'm sorry but Lihyan was south of Nabatea, not southern Nabatea. At least that's what I see. In greater southern Nabatea I see the cities of Berenike (west), Pyunikon Kome (south) and Dumata (east). I see an independent Lihyan with its capital Egra. PR, did the EBII team mention if this province-town was going to be part of the Eleutheroi at game-start?

[Populus Romanus]

I'm sorry but Lihyan was south of Nabatea, not southern Nabatea. At least that's what I see. In greater southern Nabatea I see the cities of Berenike (west), Pyunikon Kome (south) and Dumata (east). I see an independent Lihyan with its capital Egra. PR, did the EBII team mention if this province-town was going to be part of the Eleutheroi at game-start?

I was speaking of the EB province of Nabataia. The capital is going to be Hegra. Moros did not mention whether or not it would be Eleutheroi. However, that would be expected, as the alternative would be a tad bit of a giveaway.

[bobbin]

I'm guessing the decision against any more "midnight isles" factions is reflected in the province reduction. Can't wait to see the map previews so we can see where the extra provinces have gone in (guesses madly about Nabataea and India).

There hasn't been a reduction, the provinces have just been shifted around and had their borders changed

[Moros]

Lihyan will be represented by the independent settlement of Dedan. Hegra only started to be of somewhat importance in the first century bc.

[Cyclops]

There hasn't been a reduction, the provinces have just been shifted around and had their borders changed

Sorry I misunderstood, I thought the Isles were one down from EB1 with Ireland losing its southern province to Eremos.

The re-shaped Pritanoi provinces look a sweet fix, almost as neat as the Sardinia/Corsica solution. Just one less port, but its the starting province so its quite telling I imagine.

Of course how the neighbouring continental provinces work out wil be important too (eg if trhe Belgic area has been redrawn). I recall I never could get much trade out of the southern Indian port despite its great trade potential: I suspect the port distribuition as well as a lack of viable trading partners was part of the deal (hostile AS and all that): as rich as the Prytanoi get they'll need good ways into Europe to thrive.

There's so many little details to nut out in province slicing and dicing. Good work was done on the Baltic coast in EB I felt, would love to see the EB2 version (if my maths is right there will be one less Baltic port...but maths is not my strong suit) and the province re-shaping there prolly reflects the inclusion of the Lugiones...

[vartan]

Lihyan will be represented by the independent settlement of Dedan. Hegra only started to be of somewhat importance in the first century bc.

Where can I find mentions of Dedan? Any special lit. on that town? Findings, etc.?

I brought up Egra as it's all I had for the Kgdm of Lihyan on my 80 BCE Armenian map (Lihyan is relatively small compared to others on the map scale-wise, especially its neighbor Nabatea, hence only Egra being pointed on the map).

[Moros]

For some basic information you can search for Lihyan, Lihyanite, Al-'Ula (modern name), Dedan on wiki and http://nabataea.net/dedan.html. There are some books about it but they usually concentrate more on the languages (Dedanite, Lihyanite,...). A book called 'Lihyan und Lihyanisch' by W. Caskel, which is in german, has some basic history on it I seem to remember. Die alten Kulturen von al-'Ula und Mada'in Salih. Bedeutende Städte an der Weihrauchstraße, by al-Ansary and Abu al-Hassan has some good information as well. When you research Tayma, which is an other settlement of the region (known for Nabonibus), you can also find quite a bit of information on it, as the history of both settlements are pretty much linked. A good site on Tayma is http://www.dainst.org/index_38ebc39c...000011_en.html which has a short bibliography at the end. But mostly if you want information on it, you'll have to rely on scientific articles.

[Elthore]

regarding the earlier discussion on being able to conquer ireland, nobody has mentioned new colonies or military settlements. We established that romans could defeat them in battle but could not romanize them, that makes sense to me. Still, cities were created where they did not exist, like the many Alexandrias that were settled. Im sure the romans and greeks did this as well. Not being able to properly 'conquer' the region in the game, i believe, is due to some kind of engine limitation. ??!!????? is it/..

[Maeran]

Yes, it is an engine limitation. You cannot create new settlements in Total War games, although you can roleplay it with forts if you really need a permanent garrison somewhere.

[Havok.]

So Ireland the land of heroes is not unified ? Just curious.

Any subject should be and will be discussed. We live in a Democracy (or is the Netherlands the only country where you can do such things ? I am sure not) with freedom of speech even though it will rise some eyebrows.
Medieval times are over! And on top of that its was an Irishman who started this topic.

But what if the Romans decided to have look over there would all the Irish people stand United ?

You got no wrong, topics are free to be discussed indeed,just as long as in their right places.

As for the province topic, i have complete trust in the EB team decision to let just one province, i'm sure they pondered enough to decide this.

[TheLastDays]

I actually agree very much, for what it's worth...

If there weren't enough settled areas to really allow 1 region, why use 2 on the island when you need them in, dare I say it, areas that were, during the EB timeframe, way more important, politically and commercially.