How to use cavalry?

[13westst]

First post here. Ill start out by saying that this mod, which i just downloaded, is essentially amazing. The level of detail presented still leaves me confused at times, but I know that it is all to add depth to the game. Anyways, now to my question. I find cavalry especially hard to use. I find that they lose or suffer significant losses versus peasant slinger like units. So how do you use them? thanks in advance!

[Ludens]

Hello 13westst, welcome to the .Org and to EB!

Given that the EB2 modification hasn't been released yet, I assume your question is about EB1. I'll move it to the proper forum.

[vollorix]

Hier is Ibrahims guide: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...+cavalry+guide
You can allways search the forums for some usefull topics - no need to invent the wheel again ;)
Also, there are different types of cavalry ( light, medium, heavy ), each with different secondary weapon, partly armour piercing, etc. And each type has it´s own purpose on the battlefield. You might like to take a look at EB units in detail without reading the EDU ( the files, which define the stats of the units in game ): http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?
Gl&HF.

Edit: hm, didn´t notice the topic was actually in EB2 forums...

[jirisys]

First post here. Ill start out by saying that this mod, which i just downloaded, is essentially amazing. The level of detail presented still leaves me confused at times, but I know that it is all to add depth to the game. Anyways, now to my question. I find cavalry especially hard to use. I find that they lose or suffer significant losses versus peasant slinger like units. So how do you use them? thanks in advance!

Slings are blunt and therefore the force of the impact (being that it's huge nevertheless) passes through the armor and renders most armors useless to slingers.

Horses are far easier to kill than teeth armored men, since in RTW they die both for some reason, you should keep them away from fighting even archers, they can kill your horses fast.

Tactic: Hit and run. Ahistorical? Maybe. Sadly the AI always brings some foot unit to a cavalry fight...

~Jirisys ()

[VikingPower]

Always see the cavalry in context with that how they can support their infantry or the infantry support their cav.

Like when fighting enemy cav then never go with your cav against the same number of their, but try to use infantry as a moveable wall which can isolate the cav from their main army.

Don't divide your cav to both flanks in equal number, but try to horde them against the enemy's cav on other flank. If possible leave out 1 fast moving cav on the other flank to help main infantry by attacking the enemy infantry in the back, while the enemy cav is busy fighting yours.

The good thing about fast moving cav is that they can easily outrun heavier enemy cav and they can chase up with other fast moving cav to STOP them untill your heavier cav can come in support.


Never let your cav go alone behind the enemy's army to fight some cav duel if the enemy cav and archers are better than yours. Never chase fast moving enemy cav too far from your own army but ignore them and attack the enemy infantry in the back.

[moonburn]

another fact i´ve noticed is that for instance you can kill slingers with cavalry and loose x amount of soldiers if your cavarly is stronger then the enemies cavarly (and stronger normally means heavier with decent kopis for hand to hand so always remember to change to swords when in melee) you can kill their cavarly with x amount of casualties but when you fight them ombined you always loose xy*z (meaning you get beaten badly) and not just x+y casualties so even the crapiest cavarly and the crapiest peasents can defeat your strongest cavarly when it´s not properly suported

[vartan]

[...] you should keep [cavalry] away from fighting even archers, they can kill your horses fast [...]
~Jirisys ()

This misfortune can be frustrating, but I tell myself that the archers are fighting back by dragging down those pony riders.

[Lazy O]

The proper way is to harrass the enemy archers so they dont get their volleys off in time and your skirmishers gain the advantage. Ofc, heavy cavalry are useless for this role in EB

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Combined arms is absolutely crucial in EB, unless you are a horse-archer faction.

[fomalhaut]

The proper way is to harrass the enemy archers so they dont get their volleys off in time and your skirmishers gain the advantage. Ofc, heavy cavalry are useless for this role in EB

it seriously blew my mind when i figured this out myself. Oh bye Cataphract... yes i see you've been stabbed by this peasants dull dagger... yep.

[Atraphoenix]

I have nearly forgotten how to use infantry phew...
In summery, with patience mate.

What worries me so much that in M2TW Cavalry sucks, their charges suck, they secondary weapon sucks (you you double click they changes to swords before hitting with lances),...

In EB I have played nearly all the battles myself but in M2TW it is around 50/50...
Golden rule is for EB is simple never charge from front and kill slingers first.

and yes, my worst concern about EB2 is going to be this question

[A_Dane]

Are people really having problem with Heavy cavalry? s: I suck at micromanaging cavalry, but still when I'm playing as a hellenistic faction they're crucial to my warfare, and those that kill the most, to the least ammount of casualties. The only thing I really worry about is slingers/phalanxes, which is why i always have archers or a light cavalry regiment to deal with any slingers they have. Meanwhile my heavy cav kill the enemy general and then charge the back of the enemy, to suppourt my flanking AP units. This works like a charm on pretty much everything but elites, which will require more than 1 charge.

[Randal]

Cavalry in Medieval 2 is -far- more powerful than in Europa Barbarorum, in just about any mod.

Yes, charges are trickier to pull off, require more time and more micromanagement. But one good charge destroys an entire enemy infantry unit. (Or cripples several, if the enemy masses levy units against you.)

That weapon switching thing only happens if you are too hasty in trying to charge after withdrawing, or sometimes when the terrain is unsuitable for a charge.

I think Europa Barbarorum hits an excellent balance with charges that no medieval mod has quite managed to duplicate, but if anything cavalry in mêlée are too hard to kill. That cataphract killed by an archer's knife is a rare, rare exception. My good heavy infantry and even spearmen generally struggle against cataphracts for ages without killing more than a couple.

I also frequently fight archers in mêlée for extended periods of time, and using the right kinds of cavalry this tends to work just fine. I avoid spear-armed archers though.

[Tyrfingr]

Given all the classic, historical examples of archers being vunerable to cavalry, I find it extra curious that archers in EB can stand up to cavalry at all. However, some casualties ought to be expected even when cavalry-charging archers, especially as the charge slows down and archers starting to pull down riders from their horses.

[vollorix]

One could simply put a very small value ( max. "3", otherwise you´d still get "good moral" attribute on the unit cards, irrc ) for the moral of levy archer and slinger units and they should rout on the first contact with any unit heavier then them, like the peasants in vanilla used to.

[Cute Wolf]

EB cavalry are still much better in terms of balance, between power and vulnerability.

[A_Dane]

Cavalry in Medieval 2 is -far- more powerful than in Europa Barbarorum, in just about any mod.

Yes, charges are trickier to pull off, require more time and more micromanagement. But one good charge destroys an entire enemy infantry unit. (Or cripples several, if the enemy masses levy units against you.)

That weapon switching thing only happens if you are too hasty in trying to charge after withdrawing, or sometimes when the terrain is unsuitable for a charge.

I think Europa Barbarorum hits an excellent balance with charges that no medieval mod has quite managed to duplicate, but if anything cavalry in mêlée are too hard to kill. That cataphract killed by an archer's knife is a rare, rare exception. My good heavy infantry and even spearmen generally struggle against cataphracts for ages without killing more than a couple.

I also frequently fight archers in mêlée for extended periods of time, and using the right kinds of cavalry this tends to work just fine. I avoid spear-armed archers though.

This. The only archer units that ever got me scared on behalf of my heavy cav, are archer-spearmen, never had any trouble in archers vs cataphracts.

If you're playing very hard battles you're asking for it though...

[Atraphoenix]

Normal battle difficulty is too easy for me both for EB1 and M2TW,
Although some differs I play Hard for both.

BTW I mostly kill enemy generals with arrow fire. It looks like arrows have AP in M2TW?

[A_Dane]

I play battles on Hard, still easy, but i refuse to watch my elite units get torn apart by some useless levy unit. It dosn't really change anything, the outcome is mostly the same, only difference is that I'll suffer more losses for some ridicolous reason, which i must admit kills any sort of immersion i get from the game.

[Randal]

I play battles on normal because I don't like stat-bonuses for the AI.

In Medieval 2 I play them on very hard, though. There the AI just gets better stamina and morale, no stat bonuses to speak of.

I imagine difficulty will make a big difference in how effective your cavalry is against archers in Rome mods.

(No, arrows in Medieval 2 are not armour-piercing except English longbows in vanilla. Crossbows, too. In mods like Broken Crescent longbows aren't armour piercing, though crossbows still are.)

[Lazy O]

Longbows and Corssbows make perfect sense to be AP.

[gamegeek2]

Longbows should only be AP with bodkin arrows, but then they should get reduced accuracy or attack.

[vartan]

Considering that Armour Piercing doesn't mean armour piercing but rather 'consider half of the enemy's armour', I don't know if it much matters!

[Cute Wolf]

Considering that Armour Piercing doesn't mean armour piercing but rather 'consider half of the enemy's armour', I don't know if it much matters!

it matters much if the armour rate is not 1 or 2, but 11 or 12

[A_Dane]

it matters much if the armour rate is not 1 or 2, but 11 or 12

aye.. having a unit with 20 armor go down to 10 against a specific unit can be quite significant..

[vartan]

it matters much if the armour rate is not 1 or 2, but 11 or 12

That's precisely the issue. It is always half. Why are the effects not even more staggering as the numbers get higher? Or perhaps there should be an even more complex model. Must the quantification of the effects of so-called armour piercing weaponry always result in the consideration of precisely half of the armour in question?

[Lazy O]

Why must you over complicate everything?

[Randal]

I actually think it would be a big improvement if we could specify just -how- "armour piercing" a specific weapon is. If you could give, say, a club a small bonus and a flanged mace a bigger one.

As is, the "armour piercing" trait is too all-or-nothing for my tastes. I think it makes the specific weapon choice too significant compared to troop quality and training. (AKA as "Why didn't the Roman Legions arm themselves with clubs? Then they'd have conquered Parthia by defeating their cataphracts." Someone learning history from playing EB might legitimately ask that question.)

Still, it's wishful thinking, I know. The point is moot, the trait is what it is, and we'll have to deal with it.

[Lazy O]

Bottomline is, without it, Kataphractoi are useless

[Cute Wolf]

Wooden club is indeed lethal when used by strong big men that trained with it, like some screaming germans, and thus, logic to have AP, however, when used by average men, they aren't much better than simple stick, and thus shouldn't have AP.

in fact, bludgeon weapons are used worldwide in wars, but it seems axe is much supperior bludgeon weapon than club, so I'll rather ask why Romans don't arm themselves with axe? (I know sharp edged battle axe is cutting weapon as well, I talk about the commoner's axe that rarely sharpened and not well-treated for weapons, they are in fact bludgeon wepon)