Cain and Abel

[Barry Soteiro]

Cain and Abel


I

Race of Abel, sleep, eat and drink;
God smiles on you complacently.


Race of Cain, crawl on your belly,
Die in the mire wretchedly.


Race of Abel, your sacrifice
Delights the nose of the Seraphim!


Race of Cain, will there ever be
An ending to your punishment?


Race of Abel, see your sowing
And your cattle thrive and flourish;


Race of Cain, your bowels
Howl with hunger like an old dog.


Race of Abel, warm your belly
At your patriarchal hearth;


Race of Cain, shiver with the cold
In your cavern, wretched jackal!


Race of Abel, love, pullulate!
Even your gold has progeny.


Race of Cain, with the burning heart,
Beware of those intense desires.


Race of Abel, you browse and grow
Like the insects of the forest!


Race of Cain, along the highways
Drag your destitute family.


II


Ah! race of Abel, your carcass
Will fertilize the steaming soil!


Race of Cain, your appointed task
Has not been adequately done;


Race of Abel, your disgrace is:
The sword is conquered by the pike!


Race of Cain, ascend to heaven,
And cast God down upon the earth!

[Sarcasm]

Baudelaire, here? Really? Out of the blue?

[Sarcasm]

Please stop posting stuff like that. It's annoying and frustrating to our mods. Yes, you got in before the lock. Whoop-di-doo.


Seriously, what's the point in that?

[Cadwalader]

I was hoping this thread were about the meaning and origin of the legend, which actually is quite interesting.

[Sarcasm]

Contrary to the sentiment of the legend though, Baudelaire is sympathetic to Cain's kin. Being a 19th century Frenchmen, in the midst of the 1848 revolution he was a part of the common early socialist movements of the time, and thus openly anti-religion, associating Cain's banishment and plight with those of the poor masses.

Roughly my take on the subject.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Shoot, when I saw the title, I immediately thought someone was going to discuss the cracking program .

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Baudelaire also thought that Manet bore resemblance to Wagner, and both become decadent and teatrical fools on the eyes of Nietzsche, consequently. As if that helps our little OT discussion.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Please stop posting stuff like that. It's annoying and frustrating to our mods. Yes, you got in before the lock. Whoop-di-doo.


Seriously, what's the point in that?

S., just wait till I get back.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I was hoping this thread were about the meaning and origin of the legend, which actually is quite interesting.

My theory is it is an analogy about early man and the trouble that comes between farmers and cattlemen when land starts to become scarce. It seems to have happened in the history of every culture everywhere. Cattle destroy farmland and farmers take grazing land. A fight breaks out. In the long run the cowboys loose and are forced to change or go to worse lands to raise their cattle.

[bobbin]

In the long run the cowboys loose and are forced to change or go to worse lands to raise their cattle.

And become nomads!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My theory is it is an analogy about early man and the trouble that comes between farmers and cattlemen when land starts to become scarce. It seems to have happened in the history of every culture everywhere. Cattle destroy farmland and farmers take grazing land. A fight breaks out. In the long run the cowboys loose and are forced to change or go to worse lands to raise their cattle.

It's also arguably about the corruption of civilisation, Cain represents progress, but because God does not favour him he commits the first ever murder and fratricide, yet his decendants build the first cities.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Yep that fits well with the common peasant conception that cities are immoral dens of prostitution, corruption and disgrace. It happens all the time: either with diatribes vs. Babylon or the contempt for St. Petersburg found among Russian writers, at least those with less contacts with the Court and therefore less westernised (e.g. Dostoyevski).

[cmacq]

Alright now...

[Line 104]
Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten, mære mearc-stapa, se þe moras heold, fen ond fæsten; fifel-cynnes eard wonsæli wer weardode hwile, siþðan him scyppend forscrifen hæfde in Caines cynne þone cwealm gewræc ece Drihten, þæs þe he Abel slog; ne gefeah he þære fæhðe, ac he hine feor forwræc, metod for þy mane, man-cynne fram.

Rendering
Was as grim spirit Grendel called, an infamous out-stalker, as he held the moor, fen, and fast; homeland of monster-kind where this ill-favored-person dwelt, To here everafter the Lord-Creator, sentenced Cain's kin for Abel's death; nor did they rejoice in feud, as for this crime, God drove them far from human-kind.


...and yes tomorrow we'll go to the zoo.



CmacQ

[Skullheadhq]

Shoot, when I saw the title, I immediately thought someone was going to discuss the cracking program .

Yeah, that's also what I thought, somebody with that nice "password tool" is opening threads here, that would be scary

[Cadwalader]

I suspected that you guys could make this thread more interesting.

Some people believe that Cain and Abel is a later version of the Sumerian myth "Dumuzid and Enkimudu" (by the way, that website is fantastic!), where Inana, the Sumerian goddess of fertility, wants to marry the farmer Enkimudu, as opposed to the brother who wants her to marry the sheperd Dumuzid. Dumuzid eventually convinces her to marry him.

This version (if the two stories are related) is different from the Hebrew one in that Dumuzid and Enkimudu remain the best of friends after the dispute.

[klas wullt]

Dumuzid and Enkimudu is the orginal myth if you think in terms of age.
Its a returning cultural concept from the stone age.

What it really means is that its a story about the agricultural revolution
that forced early shepherd nomads into conflict with the first farmers.
As history is concerned agricultural shift was the cause of the invention
of organised war and many new sufferings of that time.

All the versions of the two brothers are the same.
Its always a farmer and a shepherd.
What differs is who is portrayed as the killer and killed.
Farmer cultures portray the farmer diety as the victim and nomad
cultures identify with the shepherd.
There is more.

Dumunzi is the orgin of the figure, Abraham.
Abraham founds judaism with the sacrifice of a ram.
This is the sacrifice of Dumuzi, whoms symbol is a ram.
His zodiac sign is the same as Abrahams the Ram.
Dumunzi is an version of the dying and ressurecting God, aka "Jesus".
The religion of the Ram is early version of Mithriasm.
Mithraism is the religion of a heavenly bull.

There is no reliable record of hebrews around 8000-4000 before christ.
But the history of the 12 tribes of jews is probably a retroactive combination
of different other cultures that did exist 8000-4000 bc.

What is relevant of the time 8000-4000 is that Moses probably was the egyptian legend of
King Menes who unified the two lands of Set and Osiris ( Cain and Abel)
and recieved the ten commandment laws from the gods.
The probably fictional King Menes was king around 8000 BC.
4000 BC was when agriculture spread to eastern europe
and where King Minos of crete is supposed according to ledgend
to have recieved the laws from Zeus.
This is why Moses was supposed to leave egypt and lead his people away from it.
It is an excuse and explaination of why they have the same religion
and perhaps to explain away the similarites between Menes and Moses.

Another factor is Zoroastrianism becouse Judaism is Zoroastrianism which also is linked to Mithra.
Early Zoroastrianism was one of the mayor religions in Babylon
and it was worshiped by the persian minority who then overthrew Babylon
and founded the Persian empire with its persian religion.
The jews wheren't jews they where Persians.
The persians is also the only possible orgin of sevenfold creation story.
Only the early Persians had a creation story similar to the jewish creation
story with seven steps and seven elements dedicated to each step.
Seven good gods created the world each day and seven evil gods created the world
on seven nights. Moral dualism is created by the persians, its only them that
first replaced natural forces with universe that was totally ruled by moral destiny.
Deases and natural accidents had moral causes, punnishments or rewards
not results of gods mysterious impulses like natural forces.





Source wikipedia and youtube: truth about religion.

[Belisarius II]

Um... you did see that this is a 2 year old topic, yes?

[jirisys]

Um... you did see that this is a 2 year old topic, yes?

Haha, hey buddy

Also, Trolling is about to go down!

~Jirisys ()

[ziegenpeter]

Never talk to a Necromancer!

[Ca Putt]

a rule of thumb for Forums and RPGs alike.

[vartan]

I have to ask: why is there such a stigma attached to the recycling and reusing of old yet relevant threads but less of a stigma for unnecessarily creating a new thread on the same topic?