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Thread: Cain and Abel

  1. #1
    Lies We Can Belive In Member Barry Soteiro's Avatar
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    Default Cain and Abel

    Cain and Abel


    I

    Race of Abel, sleep, eat and drink;
    God smiles on you complacently.


    Race of Cain, crawl on your belly,
    Die in the mire wretchedly.


    Race of Abel, your sacrifice
    Delights the nose of the Seraphim!


    Race of Cain, will there ever be
    An ending to your punishment?


    Race of Abel, see your sowing
    And your cattle thrive and flourish;


    Race of Cain, your bowels
    Howl with hunger like an old dog.


    Race of Abel, warm your belly
    At your patriarchal hearth;


    Race of Cain, shiver with the cold
    In your cavern, wretched jackal!


    Race of Abel, love, pullulate!
    Even your gold has progeny.


    Race of Cain, with the burning heart,
    Beware of those intense desires.


    Race of Abel, you browse and grow
    Like the insects of the forest!


    Race of Cain, along the highways
    Drag your destitute family.


    II


    Ah! race of Abel, your carcass
    Will fertilize the steaming soil!


    Race of Cain, your appointed task
    Has not been adequately done;


    Race of Abel, your disgrace is:
    The sword is conquered by the pike!


    Race of Cain, ascend to heaven,
    And cast God down upon the earth!
    Lies we can believe in

  2. #2
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Baudelaire, here? Really? Out of the blue?



    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars

    -- Oscar Wilde

  3. #3
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Please stop posting stuff like that. It's annoying and frustrating to our mods. Yes, you got in before the lock. Whoop-di-doo.


    Seriously, what's the point in that?
    Last edited by Sarcasm; 08-02-2009 at 19:08.



    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars

    -- Oscar Wilde

  4. #4

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    I was hoping this thread were about the meaning and origin of the legend, which actually is quite interesting.
    ξυνòς 'Evυáλιoς κaí τε κτανéoντα κατéκτα
    Alike to all is the War God, and him who would kill he kills. (Il. 18.309)

  5. #5
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Contrary to the sentiment of the legend though, Baudelaire is sympathetic to Cain's kin. Being a 19th century Frenchmen, in the midst of the 1848 revolution he was a part of the common early socialist movements of the time, and thus openly anti-religion, associating Cain's banishment and plight with those of the poor masses.

    Roughly my take on the subject.
    Last edited by Sarcasm; 08-02-2009 at 20:11.



    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars

    -- Oscar Wilde

  6. #6
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Shoot, when I saw the title, I immediately thought someone was going to discuss the cracking program .

  7. #7

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Baudelaire also thought that Manet bore resemblance to Wagner, and both become decadent and teatrical fools on the eyes of Nietzsche, consequently. As if that helps our little OT discussion.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm View Post
    Please stop posting stuff like that. It's annoying and frustrating to our mods. Yes, you got in before the lock. Whoop-di-doo.


    Seriously, what's the point in that?
    S., just wait till I get back.

  9. #9
    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadwalader View Post
    I was hoping this thread were about the meaning and origin of the legend, which actually is quite interesting.
    My theory is it is an analogy about early man and the trouble that comes between farmers and cattlemen when land starts to become scarce. It seems to have happened in the history of every culture everywhere. Cattle destroy farmland and farmers take grazing land. A fight breaks out. In the long run the cowboys loose and are forced to change or go to worse lands to raise their cattle.
    Last edited by MarcusAureliusAntoninus; 08-02-2009 at 21:58.


  10. #10
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus View Post
    In the long run the cowboys loose and are forced to change or go to worse lands to raise their cattle.
    And become nomads!


  11. #11
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus View Post
    My theory is it is an analogy about early man and the trouble that comes between farmers and cattlemen when land starts to become scarce. It seems to have happened in the history of every culture everywhere. Cattle destroy farmland and farmers take grazing land. A fight breaks out. In the long run the cowboys loose and are forced to change or go to worse lands to raise their cattle.
    It's also arguably about the corruption of civilisation, Cain represents progress, but because God does not favour him he commits the first ever murder and fratricide, yet his decendants build the first cities.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Yep that fits well with the common peasant conception that cities are immoral dens of prostitution, corruption and disgrace. It happens all the time: either with diatribes vs. Babylon or the contempt for St. Petersburg found among Russian writers, at least those with less contacts with the Court and therefore less westernised (e.g. Dostoyevski).
    Last edited by A Terribly Harmful Name; 08-03-2009 at 00:10.

  13. #13
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Alright now...

    [Line 104]
    Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten, mære mearc-stapa, se þe moras heold, fen ond fæsten; fifel-cynnes eard wonsæli wer weardode hwile, siþðan him scyppend forscrifen hæfde in Caines cynne þone cwealm gewræc ece Drihten, þæs þe he Abel slog; ne gefeah he þære fæhðe, ac he hine feor forwræc, metod for þy mane, man-cynne fram.

    Rendering
    Was as grim spirit Grendel called, an infamous out-stalker, as he held the moor, fen, and fast; homeland of monster-kind where this ill-favored-person dwelt, To here everafter the Lord-Creator, sentenced Cain's kin for Abel's death; nor did they rejoice in feud, as for this crime, God drove them far from human-kind.


    ...and yes tomorrow we'll go to the zoo.



    CmacQ
    Last edited by cmacq; 08-03-2009 at 20:48.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  14. #14
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus View Post
    Shoot, when I saw the title, I immediately thought someone was going to discuss the cracking program .
    Yeah, that's also what I thought, somebody with that nice "password tool" is opening threads here, that would be scary
    "When the candles are out all women are fair."
    -Plutarch, Coniugia Praecepta 46

  15. #15

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    I suspected that you guys could make this thread more interesting.

    Some people believe that Cain and Abel is a later version of the Sumerian myth "Dumuzid and Enkimudu" (by the way, that website is fantastic!), where Inana, the Sumerian goddess of fertility, wants to marry the farmer Enkimudu, as opposed to the brother who wants her to marry the sheperd Dumuzid. Dumuzid eventually convinces her to marry him.

    This version (if the two stories are related) is different from the Hebrew one in that Dumuzid and Enkimudu remain the best of friends after the dispute.
    ξυνòς 'Evυáλιoς κaí τε κτανéoντα κατéκτα
    Alike to all is the War God, and him who would kill he kills. (Il. 18.309)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Dumuzid and Enkimudu is the orginal myth if you think in terms of age.
    Its a returning cultural concept from the stone age.

    What it really means is that its a story about the agricultural revolution
    that forced early shepherd nomads into conflict with the first farmers.
    As history is concerned agricultural shift was the cause of the invention
    of organised war and many new sufferings of that time.

    All the versions of the two brothers are the same.
    Its always a farmer and a shepherd.
    What differs is who is portrayed as the killer and killed.
    Farmer cultures portray the farmer diety as the victim and nomad
    cultures identify with the shepherd.
    There is more.

    Dumunzi is the orgin of the figure, Abraham.
    Abraham founds judaism with the sacrifice of a ram.
    This is the sacrifice of Dumuzi, whoms symbol is a ram.
    His zodiac sign is the same as Abrahams the Ram.
    Dumunzi is an version of the dying and ressurecting God, aka "Jesus".
    The religion of the Ram is early version of Mithriasm.
    Mithraism is the religion of a heavenly bull.

    There is no reliable record of hebrews around 8000-4000 before christ.
    But the history of the 12 tribes of jews is probably a retroactive combination
    of different other cultures that did exist 8000-4000 bc.

    What is relevant of the time 8000-4000 is that Moses probably was the egyptian legend of
    King Menes who unified the two lands of Set and Osiris ( Cain and Abel)
    and recieved the ten commandment laws from the gods.
    The probably fictional King Menes was king around 8000 BC.
    4000 BC was when agriculture spread to eastern europe
    and where King Minos of crete is supposed according to ledgend
    to have recieved the laws from Zeus.
    This is why Moses was supposed to leave egypt and lead his people away from it.
    It is an excuse and explaination of why they have the same religion
    and perhaps to explain away the similarites between Menes and Moses.

    Another factor is Zoroastrianism becouse Judaism is Zoroastrianism which also is linked to Mithra.
    Early Zoroastrianism was one of the mayor religions in Babylon
    and it was worshiped by the persian minority who then overthrew Babylon
    and founded the Persian empire with its persian religion.
    The jews wheren't jews they where Persians.
    The persians is also the only possible orgin of sevenfold creation story.
    Only the early Persians had a creation story similar to the jewish creation
    story with seven steps and seven elements dedicated to each step.
    Seven good gods created the world each day and seven evil gods created the world
    on seven nights. Moral dualism is created by the persians, its only them that
    first replaced natural forces with universe that was totally ruled by moral destiny.
    Deases and natural accidents had moral causes, punnishments or rewards
    not results of gods mysterious impulses like natural forces.





    Source wikipedia and youtube: truth about religion.

  17. #17
    They call me Flavius Member Belisarius II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Um... you did see that this is a 2 year old topic, yes?
    "Possunt quia posse videntur." - Virgil - "They can because they think they can."

  18. #18
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius II View Post
    Um... you did see that this is a 2 year old topic, yes?
    Haha, hey buddy

    Also, Trolling is about to go down!

    ~Jirisys ()
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Because we all need to compensate...

  19. #19
    EB on ALX player Member ziegenpeter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    Never talk to a Necromancer!

    "A wise man once said: Never buy a game full price!"
    - Another wise man

  20. #20

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    a rule of thumb for Forums and RPGs alike.
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
    - Pyrrhus of Epirus

    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
    - Leonidas of Sparta

    "People called Romanes they go the House"
    - Alaric the Visigoth

  21. #21

    Default Re: Cain and Abel

    I have to ask: why is there such a stigma attached to the recycling and reusing of old yet relevant threads but less of a stigma for unnecessarily creating a new thread on the same topic?
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