does naginata = ashigeru? from the smith armour/attack bonus point of view.

[Furunculus]

playing a clan that starts with a smith province, and decided i like running around with naginata armed monks.

the smith says it upgrades the defence of samurai swordsmen and ashigeru.

is a naginata unit type just a more advanced version of an ashigeru unit type as far as the game mechanics are concerned, in which case does the armour bonus apply to naginata monks?

cheers

[Daevyll]

Just guessing mind you, since I havent tried it, but I think not.

So far I have seen these 5 kinds of upgrades listed separately for combat units:

- Samurai
- Ashigaru
- Warrior Monks
- All xxxx-armed units (where xxxx is a certain weapon type, like sword, spear or bow)
- All units

So my guess is, if it doesnt specifically state either 'warrior monks', 'sprear-armed units' or 'all units' in the description it will not affect your Naginata Monks.

Let me know if you find out differently though :)

[TosaInu]

Hello Furunculus,

An ashigaru is a peasant warrior. They could have any sort of weapon, a matchlock or some sort of spear is best known. Some ashigaru also had other weapons, like the fearsome naginata.

I don't have my copy yet, but judging from the older titles: a smith just makes better quality weapons/armor and that increases the combatvalue of your newly trained units.

[Furunculus]

hmmm, cheers guys.

the province smith bonus is quite specific to samurai and ashigeru, so i guess it isn't affecting my naginata monks, for all that i agree with Tosa that it should upgrade all military units created in the province.

is there any way to confirm the matter, one way or the other?

[TosaInu]

In the previous titles it showed an extra symbol on the unitcard of newly created units in that province: like a sword or shield.

[Furunculus]

hmm, i shall have look.

[al Roumi]

Playing as Shimazu, I built a temple in Satsuma (capital) which also has the blacksmith -which I upgraded to a +2 weaponsmith. Although I think my early katana samurai were also getting +1 armour AND weapons -and some got only +1 weapons (maybe this is buggy?)

I'm pretty sure that my Nagatina warrior monks are getting the same +2 attack bonus as other melee units recruited in Satsuma (denoted by a white sword in the corner of the unit card - red sword is +1), but as I'm not at home I can't 100% confirm...

I promise to check tonight! (that's another reason I can use to squeeze in a few turns... thanks!)

[Furunculus]

cheers, i'll check for white shields, and between the two of us we should be able to nail this down.

if Tosa is correct, and any units are upgraded, then CA need to improve the tooltip for smiths pronto. because it is downright misleading at the moment.

[Furunculus]

just to clear up the mystery, my naginata monks do not get the armour bonus that my sword samurai get, so the bonus is quite unit specific.

is there a list of smith bonuses from the various provinces that have them, including the units those bonuses are specific to?

[TosaInu]

In the original STW, the naginata could only be built with an armourer. Afaik, the naginata didn't get the extra brown shield in the unitcard, while all other units trained there did.

[drone]

The encyclopedia (demo version at least) does specify different bonus levels for ashis, samurai, and warrior monks. Blacksmith = +1 samurai, Armourer = +2 for samurai and ashis, Master Armourer = +3 for samurai, ashis, monks, ninjas, and siege.

[al Roumi]

just to clear up the mystery, my naginata monks do not get the armour bonus that my sword samurai get, so the bonus is quite unit specific.

is there a list of smith bonuses from the various provinces that have them, including the units those bonuses are specific to?

Hmm. My monks DO get the weapon/attack bonus - the same as my Yari or Katana Samurai and Yari ashigaru.

[Furunculus]

The encyclopedia (demo version at least) does specify different bonus levels for ashis, samurai, and warrior monks. Blacksmith = +1 samurai, Armourer = +2 for samurai and ashis, Master Armourer = +3 for samurai, ashis, monks, ninjas, and siege.

aha, perhaps my smith is merely not advanced enough, and a level up to master armourer will extend the bonus to more unit types.

that would be satisfactory.

Hmm. My monks DO get the weapon/attack bonus - the same as my Yari or Katana Samurai and Yari ashigaru.

what 'level' is your smith?

[al Roumi]

what 'level' is your smith?

The highest, afaik. Melee units produced there all have a white sword in the top of their card.

[Furunculus]

perhaps this is why my naginata monks are not getting a bonus, because even my samurai swordsmen were only being churned out with one silver shield, so as per Drones comment perhaps my smith is simply not upgraded enough.......

I will have to check the encyclopedia.

[al Roumi]

My memory is a little hazy but I'm prety sure my units like katana samurai started off receiving either a red sword or sword and shield. I was then presented with a choice between upgrading the blacksmith to a weaponsmith offering +2 weapons or an armourer offering +2 armour.

Assuming sword = weapon and shield = armour on the icon card, you've chosen a different path to moi (mon chere).

This blacksmith thing is as clear as mud and I've not been able to find a tech tree or building tree online as yet. Can't remember if there was one included in the box -TW games used to come with a foldout map and tech tree, don't remember one this time.

[Furunculus]

yes, my units definitely get a silver shield, but only if they are sword samurai, naginata monks don't.

what i am hoping is that we can confirm that higher level weapon/armour smiths spread their bonuses a little wider than just sword samurai an ashigeru........

[drone]

The 'pedia says the Blacksmith gives +1 armour and +1 attack to Samurai only. The upgrade path after that is either armour or melee, and will include ashis and then monks/ninja/siege. Seems weird to go from no bonus to +3 for monks, but that is what it says.

I really need to bust open the pack files and see what's going on...

[Furunculus]

please do. :D

[Lemur]

Just FYI, if you build the "encampment" line in a province where you have a smith, and then go with the "armory" 2nd level building, and the smith specializes in weapons -- you wind up with silver shield and silver weapons for your recruits. Now them's some well-equipped samurai. And I note that the little icon representing improved shields and weapons shows up on both ashigaru and samurai units. No idea about monks just yet.

-edit-

P.S.: From what I have seen, there is no way to create ashigaru with naginata. If you want a big blade at the end of a long pole, you gotta go with samurai or monks.

[drone]

please do. :D

I don't actually own the game, I'm getting all this from the demo. So I may be talking out of my posterior.

Just FYI, if you build the "encampment" line in a province where you have a smith, and then go with the "armory" 2nd level building, and the smith specializes in weapons -- you wind up with silver shield and silver weapons for your recruits. Now them's some well-equipped samurai. And I note that the little icon representing improved shields and weapons shows up on both ashigaru and samurai units. No idea about monks just yet.

The 'pedia says +2 armor to all with the Armoury (as opposed to the Armourer)

[Lemur]

The 'pedia says +2 armor to all with the Armoury (as opposed to the Armourer)

Right, but the "armory" is a second level building that comes after the "encampment" building. Pair that up with a smith specializing in weapons, and you've got some tankage going on. In theory. Work has really gotten between me and the conquest of Japan.

[Lord of the Isles]

Just FYI, if you build the "encampment" line in a province where you have a smith, and then go with the "armory" 2nd level building, and the smith specializes in weapons -- you wind up with silver shield and silver weapons for your recruits. Now them's some well-equipped samurai. And I note that the little icon representing improved shields and weapons shows up on both ashigaru and samurai units. No idea about monks just yet.

Yes for Monks. I've got an armoury (the building after Encampment that gives +2 armour) in Satsuma, along with a Weaponsmith (the province specific 'right-hand' building). Added to that are a Spear training building and a Monastery, and I get Naginata Monks with a silver sword AND a silver armour icon, same as with Naginata infantry, Yari samauri and Yari ashigari I recruit there. When I hover over those icons I get a tooltip telling me I have superior melee or superior armour (the bronze icons produce improved melee or improved armour tooltips).

Not sure what the 'shields' are that are being talked about - the armour icons look like a tshirt to me!

[drone]

Right, but the "armory" is a second level building that comes after the "encampment" building. Pair that up with a smith specializing in weapons, and you've got some tankage going on. In theory. Work has really gotten between me and the conquest of Japan.

I am agreeing with you here. Don't know why they named the two buildings so similar. I also don't understand the reasoning behind the weird tiered system with the Blacksmith/Armoury/Master Armoury line, there must be a limitation in the engine on how upgrades can be distributed. Looking through a lot of the research and building descriptions, they seem to be allow bonuses on unit classes, as opposed to specific unit types.

[Furunculus]

Added to that are a Spear training building and a Monastery, and I get Naginata Monks with a silver sword AND a silver armour icon, same as with Naginata infantry, Yari samauri

Fantastic news, you have made me a happy man!