Marrying princesses

[Gilrandir]

When you want to marry your princess into some royal house you get a message saying that in case your kingdom falls apart this faction can claim a portion of your territory (though you cannot check whether anyone has really put forward such a claim since your game is over). I believe this rule holds the other way i.e. if your monarch (or his heirs) have a foreign wife, they can claim a portion of the princess' homeland faction provided it failed to produce a king. I wonder has anyone got a message saying, for example, that the French king died heirless and his kingdom exists no more, but you can have Anjou and Normandy, because the late king's grandmother was your beloved princess Berengaria? (I hope I have made my point clear.)

[drone]

It has never happened for me, but it is possible to inherit lands in this fashion. In my current Novgorod campaign, I got 2 princesses thrown my way within a couple years time, I'm hopeful I will finally see this for myself.

[caravel]

When you want to marry your princess into some royal house you get a message saying that in case your kingdom falls apart this faction can claim a portion of your territory (though you cannot check whether anyone has really put forward such a claim since your game is over).

That's exactly how it works - the warning about them claiming your lands is irrelevant indeed as it's game over anyway.

I believe this rule holds the other way i.e. if your monarch (or his heirs) have a foreign wife, they can claim a portion of the princess' homeland faction provided it failed to produce a king. I wonder has anyone got a message saying, for example, that the French king died heirless and his kingdom exists no more, but you can have Anjou and Normandy, because the late king's grandmother was your beloved princess Berengaria? (I hope I have made my point clear.)

Yes it happens but it's very rare... I've only seen it maybe once or twice, some other players here, never. The heir/king that married that faction's princess needs to be still alive when they are wiped out for it to have a chance of working - having simply a "descent" from that faction won't do it AFAIK. I think lower taxes are also a factor, or the loyalty boost that comes from setting them low. The last time I remember it happening was the Danes, when I was the English - I acquired their lands because I had recently married my heirs off to loads of their princesses. Even if all conditions are met it's not guaranteed... as ever there is still a dice roll.

The things I'm not sure if:

1) Does the connection need to be directly via your king? i.e. is a connection through an heir (married to one of the faction's princesses) enough.
2) Do you need to be allied, or is neutral enough?

As I said, not entirely sure of those two - I'm guessing you need to allied, or statistically this could happen much more often - not necessarily though... I'd also guess it needs to be via the king and not heirs.

//edit:

@drone: Unless you're playing as the Byzantine, this may not work? I've never known of cross culture/religion inheritence of lands, but it's possible it's just so rare no one has ever mentioned it before. The Byzantine and Novgorod just don't seem to produce many princesses compared to the catholics and the muslims and pagans none at all - so it's hard to be sure.

[drone]

@drone: Unless you're playing as the Byzantine, this may not work? I've never known of cross culture/religion inheritence of lands, but it's possible it's just so rare no one has ever mentioned it before. The Byzantine and Novgorod just don't seem to produce many princesses compared to the catholics and the muslims and pagans none at all - so it's hard to be sure.

The unit_prod does not have Novgorod in the princess' faction entry, I have modded mine to include it (they get one at the start of Early, so why not?). I'm assuming if you can marry a princess off to a faction, inheritance is possible in the reverse (which eliminates Muslim/Pagan factions from the equation). It would be nice to see, but I'm not holding my breath...

[I of the Storm]

I've had it happening once long ago, where a rather large spanish empire went extinct. I inherited a large part of it, but not all IIRC.

[Gilrandir]

Two more questions connected with the princess issue:
1. When you marry your princess to one of your own generals does it boost his loyalty only (and how much - 1, 2 or more "shields"?) or does it affect the general's other traits of character (acumen, command)?
2. The manual warns not to try to marry your princesses to your princes profesying some dreadful consequences to come. I once tried when it didn't really matter as the game was 5-6 turns before 1453. The princess was removed from the game, but evidently the AI didn't have enough time to brew some unsavory drink for me. So, has anyone tried to do this at the height of the game and what problems did it bring on you?

[caravel]

The unit_prod does not have Novgorod in the princess' faction entry, I have modded mine to include it (they get one at the start of Early, so why not?). I'm assuming if you can marry a princess off to a faction, inheritance is possible in the reverse (which eliminates Muslim/Pagan factions from the equation). It would be nice to see, but I'm not holding my breath...

I forgot about that... I used to mod the princesses in to the Orthodox factions as well - or was it just Russians and Novgorod? I'm almost certain it was all of them as IIRC the Byzantine don't get any princesses beond the ones they start with as well. It looks like something CA changed their minds over - probably in an effort to balance the game and keep the whole princess thing catholic only.

Two more questions connected with the princess issue:
1. When you marry your princess to one of your own generals does it boost his loyalty only (and how much - 1, 2 or more "shields"?) or does it affect the general's other traits of character (acumen, command)?
2. The manual warns not to try to marry your princesses to your princes profesying some dreadful consequences to come. I once tried when it didn't really matter as the game was 5-6 turns before 1453. The princess was removed from the game, but evidently the AI didn't have enough time to brew some unsavory drink for me. So, has anyone tried to do this at the height of the game and what problems did it bring on you?

1. It boosts his loyalty by about 2 if I remember rightly, certainly no more than two though.

2. The heir/king gets the secret incest/incest line of vices which only affect piety. It's worth doing if you have a lot of spare princesses and cannot get any other faction to offer you theirs. I've not seen any adverse affects further down the line from it.

[drone]

I forgot about that... I used to mod the princesses in to the Orthodox factions as well - or was it just Russians and Novgorod? I'm almost certain it was all of them as IIRC the Byzantine don't get any princesses beond the ones they start with as well. It looks like something CA changed their minds over - probably in an effort to balance the game and keep the whole princess thing catholic only.

Early.txt has Novgorod and the Byz with a princess at the start. In High, the Byz get a princess in Nicaea. In Late, the Swiss get one in Switzerland, the Byz get one in Constantinople.

The vanilla unit prod column entry for princesses:

"FN_ARAGONESE, FN_BURGUNDIAN, FN_DANISH, FN_ENGLISH, FN_FRENCH, FN_GERMAN_HRE, FN_HUNGARIAN, FN_ITALIAN, FN_PAPIST, FN_POLISH, FN_RUSSIAN, FN_SICILIAN, FN_SPANISH"

So the Byz, Swiss, and Novgorod are omitted. The Russians are listed though, so who knows what the rationale was. I can see the omission of the Swiss and Novgorod, as they are "unplayable" factions, but I don't know about the Byzantines. The Pope gets them as well, for the lulz I guess.

[caravel]

I can see the omission of the Swiss and Novgorod, as they are "unplayable" factions, but I don't know about the Byzantines. The Pope gets them as well, for the lulz I guess.

Uplayable factions should still produce princesses though... and the burgundians are there... very odd. I remember the byzantines and novgorod being missing but never noticed that the swiss were as well. I doubt it's anything more complex than an error. There are quite a few in the unit prod file, most of which don't have any effect.

[gollum]

Novgorod/Russians and the Byzantines do get princesses in vanilla without any need for modifications AFAIK, however they produce less than the catholics for the most part as mentioned, particularly the Byzantines. It seems to me it has something to do with the hardcoded behaviour for each faction or each culture. Inheritances can happen, but they are rare unlike STW because:
a) its relatively difficult for factions to lose all heirs as they produce relatively lots most of teh time
b) beause the time a ruler spends on teh throne is pretty small in game terms (10 to 40 on average, or thereabouts)

In STW on the other hand inheritances are pretty common because, factions have set and much fewer heirs, which means leader dying heirless is much more common than MTW, and also rulers stay on the throne for a long long time in terms of game time ie many turns (as STW has seasonal turns and counts the lives of rulers in real years).

[drone]

It's possible that the generation of princesses is culture related, but if so I think the faction still needs to be listed in the unit_prod. I never got a princess in my Swiss campaign (except for the initial one listed in Late.txt).

[gollum]

Right, i see, thanks drone. I never played with the Swiss. I can't remember if they are playable in vanilla by default in high/late.

[I of the Storm]

I've just had the Germans inherit Corsica and Sardinia from the Genoese, whom I had just killed, in a Sicily XL game. So, it really happens from time to time, although I suspect that the marriage has to be rather recent (as was probably in this case, as it was around 1100).

[gollum]

speak of the devil eh? :)

[I of the Storm]

So it would seem... :-)

[Ironside]

When you want to marry your princess into some royal house you get a message saying that in case your kingdom falls apart this faction can claim a portion of your territory (though you cannot check whether anyone has really put forward such a claim since your game is over).

Actually there's a bug about this. Occationally, you'll get a civil war instead of a faction wipeout when the royal line dies. But all the land can be gifted away by marriage claims before that happens. That gives a civil war with no land and no troops on wither side. But you still have a king and are alive, in another nation's lands. And that unit is a bit buggy. That has happened to an orgah and I've seen it happen to the AI, giving the land to me.

@drone: Unless you're playing as the Byzantine, this may not work? I've never known of cross culture/religion inheritence of lands, but it's possible it's just so rare no one has ever mentioned it before. The Byzantine and Novgorod just don't seem to produce many princesses compared to the catholics and the muslims and pagans none at all - so it's hard to be sure.

I've seen the Mongols get Demark through inheiritage once. So it's possible cross-cultural.

[Gilrandir]

I saw it happen! The Sicilians sent their princess to marry a Russian prince, then 5-7 years later I got a message that the Sicilians are no more, but their land goes over to Russians. Thus, there are now two Russian islands in Mediterranean - Sicily and Malta. So cross-confessional (if not cross-religional) inheritance of lands is possilble!

[Gilrandir]

One more thing I wonder about. Can you marry your princess to a rebel general?

[I of the Storm]

AFAIK they don't have a ruling dynasty, and as a rule you can't marry your princesses to simple generals outside of your faction, only to your own generals - so: No.

[Gilrandir]

I'm almost certain it was all of them as IIRC the Byzantine don't get any princesses beond the ones they start with as well.

The Byz do get princesses, but not that often, I would say once in a hundred years.
And in my game the Byz heirs are mostly born when the king reaches 35 or later, even if he was married in early youth.

[Karl08]

2. The heir/king gets the secret incest/incest line of vices which only affect piety. It's worth doing if you have a lot of spare princesses and cannot get any other faction to offer you theirs. I've not seen any adverse affects further down the line from it.

For the incestuous couple, this is indeed all that happens. However, heirs produced from this union will receive negative traits which affect both command and acumen, such as "odd number of toes", "chinless wonder" etc. From doing a bit of experimenting, it does seem that it's not only the offspring of the incestuous couple which is affected, but the entire family, whether brothers or nephews or whatnot, which isn't very logical.

[Brandy Blue]

I'm pretty sure I've seen odd number of toes and chinless wonder without marrying a princess off to someone in her own family. Does incest make it more common?

[Karl08]

I'm pretty sure I've seen odd number of toes and chinless wonder without marrying a princess off to someone in her own family. Does incest make it more common?

Oh, those traits do indeed pop up all by themselves. But I do believe it happens a lot more often when you marry your own princesses to your own heirs, yes.

[Brandy Blue]

If your heir got an odd number of toes spontaneously and then "rolled" the same trait because his brother committed incest, he ought to end up with an even number of toes, possibly twelve. Doesn't work that way, though, does it.

[Gilrandir]

I decided to disinter this thread to share my observations and ask a couple of questions.
1. In all my campaigns I noticed that only one faction at a time accepts your marital offers (both male and female). At some stage it may stop doing this so you have to find another faction willing to do it, but again it is only one faction at a time.
Do you have similar experience?
2. At a certain stage, usually well into the campaign, all factions stop agreeing to your marital offers. Is it worth repeating offers from time to time (say, after the change of their/your monarch which will possibly incur the change of influence and related matters) or will their mind never change? Well, I repeatedly do this, but unsuccessfully. Perhaps someone had an opposite experience?
2. Does accepting a marital offer automatically mean entering an alliance with the faction in question?

[Brandy Blue]

1: I think you are right about this but I'm not sure. Possibly a faction stops accepting offers because it has run out of married princes.

2: Seems like well into the campaign nobody likes you or will accept any diplomatic overture, including marriage proposals.

3: I think that a marriage proposal theoretically means an automatic alliance. However, let say you marry your princess into the French royal family and the French are allies with the HRE. If you are at war with the HRE, then France must choose between you or the HRE. If the French keep their alliance with the HRE then your alliance with the French gets cancelled as soon as it begins. So in practice, you can get an accepted marital offer and not get the alliance.

[Ironside]

I decided to disinter this thread to share my observations and ask a couple of questions.
1. In all my campaigns I noticed that only one faction at a time accepts your marital offers (both male and female). At some stage it may stop doing this so you have to find another faction willing to do it, but again it is only one faction at a time.
Do you have similar experience?
2. At a certain stage, usually well into the campaign, all factions stop agreeing to your marital offers. Is it worth repeating offers from time to time (say, after the change of their/your monarch which will possibly incur the change of influence and related matters) or will their mind never change? Well, I repeatedly do this, but unsuccessfully. Perhaps someone had an opposite experience?
2. Does accepting a marital offer automatically mean entering an alliance with the faction in question?

1. No, you can have more than 1 faction accepting marriages at the same time. There's usually only 1 faction that likes to cuddle up with you for several generations though.
2. Yes (and no). Yes, after the opponent reach the total war mode and will never accept peace, he'll never accept marriage. But depending on how hard you've been trying, that mode can be much later than you first expect. They're unsually never generous with marriage after the first war though. Also, an isolated faction,say Sicily without ships can be accepting marriages to the end, probably since they can never reach total war mode.
3. It should, but there's one thing that's probably a bug. Requesting marriage doesn't give default alliance. Now it was a while ago, but iirc I've had one campaign were it didn't even stop the war. So my vikings were getting Irish princesses all the time during the multi-generational "raging" (viking fleet around the island, no other activities) Viking-Irish war.

A general thing that's worth trying out is the alliance pattern compared to the marriage pattern. I know that the AI will almost never ally with you if you're at war with one of thier allies (destroy the ally and they will ally with you). I never tried to see this pattern, but I think it's possibly similar.

[Gilrandir]

A general thing that's worth trying out is the alliance pattern compared to the marriage pattern. I know that the AI will almost never ally with you if you're at war with one of thier allies (destroy the ally and they will ally with you). I never tried to see this pattern, but I think it's possibly similar.

There are two things about that alliance stuff that exasperate me. Both can be illustrated.
1. You play as, say, the Byz. You have 5-6 allies and live peacefully (for the time being). Another faction, say, the Hungarians has the same allies. One day they invade your realm and you repel them. And the same year you get a message (or messages) that 4 out of your allies announced that they can't stay your allies because you are at war with the Huns. Well, how do you like it? It was not me who started the war, I won the first battle which (according to "The beginner's guide to MTW") should have kept my allies with me, not my enemy, so what's the problem? Why should I lose the allies just because someone fancied attacking me?
2. It happened in my last Turkish campaign when my empire stretched from the Atlantic to Volga-Bulgaria. My ally Russians held two provinces (Smolensk and Muscovy) surrounded from every side by my lands. One of their allies was the newly-arisen Swiss. When I attacked the Swiss in Tyrolia the Russians announced about breaking alliance with me and staying allied with the Swiss. Where is common sense? They chose rather to be friends with the petty nation thousands leagues away than to have a friendly powerful neighbor.

[Ironside]

There are two things about that alliance stuff that exasperate me. Both can be illustrated.
1. You play as, say, the Byz. You have 5-6 allies and live peacefully (for the time being). Another faction, say, the Hungarians has the same allies. One day they invade your realm and you repel them. And the same year you get a message (or messages) that 4 out of your allies announced that they can't stay your allies because you are at war with the Huns. Well, how do you like it? It was not me who started the war, I won the first battle which (according to "The beginner's guide to MTW") should have kept my allies with me, not my enemy, so what's the problem? Why should I lose the allies just because someone fancied attacking me?
2. It happened in my last Turkish campaign when my empire stretched from the Atlantic to Volga-Bulgaria. My ally Russians held two provinces (Smolensk and Muscovy) surrounded from every side by my lands. One of their allies was the newly-arisen Swiss. When I attacked the Swiss in Tyrolia the Russians announced about breaking alliance with me and staying allied with the Swiss. Where is common sense? They chose rather to be friends with the petty nation thousands leagues away than to have a friendly powerful neighbor.

Allying doesn't always make much sense, although the second one is easy to explain. The AI always plays for 100% victory and assumes you'll do the same. Breaking an alliance gives an influence penalty of 1 (always fun when this causes a civil war for the attacker). You can take that loss, he can't and he also wants to have first strike opportunity -> breaking the alliance without penalty at first opportunity.
1 is happening when you're starting to approach the size where total war mode starts against you. I haven't seen the thing mentioned in that guide. I'm guessing that they're more prone to break the alliance with the aggressor, but you always get to choose on whom to keep the alliance with. As I said above, the interesting thing in case 1 is that you can regain maybe 2-3 of those alliances by wiping out the Hungarians.

[Gilrandir]

I haven't seen the thing mentioned in that guide. I'm guessing that they're more prone to break the alliance with the aggressor, but you always get to choose on whom to keep the alliance with.

Let me quote:
2.7 Diplomacy
Diplomacy in Total War is very simple. There are three states of relations allied, neutral and at war. You can use emissaries, Catholic bishops and princesses to propose various diplomatic things like peace, alliances and marriages. Only the emissary can offer all diplomatic proposals. The AI often won't accept your offers of cease fires, marriages or alliances. I don't know why, they turn down offers made by a faction lead by a king with high influence (the higher a kings influence, the more likely factions are to accept your proposals) for no obvious reason. Try to accept any offers of alliance, they are useful when you start a war. Generally the winner of the first battle in a war will keep their allies. The loser will find their allies deserting them.If the AI offers you a princess in marriage you should accept without delay. Foreign princesses allow your heirs to marry sooner and start an alliance, killing two birds with one stone.


As for wiping someone out - I never do this (unless accidentally) not to face re-emergence of the faction in the most unpleasant place.
And, 1 happened to me pretty often, e.g. in my French high expert campaign when I was trying tooth and nail to keep my Outremer provinces and fend off the English in Europe - so it was during the first fifty years of the game. I believe total war mode hadn't been reached by that time.