Spyder's web

[gollum]

Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa
Spies only affect the loyalty of the province, not the loyalty of generals.

False…. Spies affect the loyalty of target-generals due to failed treason-trials. Per each attempted and failed trial: -1 Loyalty as a result… And then there is the vices too….


Vices gained:
===========

1 attempted & failed trial: “Informants”, -0 loyalty…. +2 vs. spies
2 attempted & failed trials: “Informant network”, -1 loyalty…. +4 vs. spies
3 attempted & failed trials: “Spy Network”, -2 loyalty…. +4 vs. spies
4 attempted & failed trials: “Spy Network”, -3 loyalty…. +4 vs. spies
5 attempted & failed trials: “Secret Assassinator”, -4 loyalty…. +6 vs. spies, – 20% happiness…
6 attempted & failed trials: “Assassinator”, -5 loyalty…. +2 vs. spies, -40% happiness….

Hello Axalon, like Girlandir says, i also undestood that Asai meant whether spies affect generals' loyalty by their default presence. If so, and i think that this is how it was meant, then what ws said is actually true.

Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa
Failed treason plots have no effect apart from giving the general vices that can make him harder to get rid of - more resistant to spies.

False…. See above…. Also, the fact is that with enough failed trials it actually becomes easier pull it off due to severely lowered loyalty that comes out of repeated attempts.

Combined with the above, i'd say that this information is certainly incomplete but not false. False means something entirely wrong or untrue and this is not tha case. Thank you for adding/correcting the info presented, but there is no need to discredit the author of it in doing so.

This time around it will be me (again).

I'm sure we all welcome your knowledgeable contributions Axalon, but there is really no need trying to outdo in a discrediting manner fellow members by contributing. Whatever tension or rivalry may have existed or still exists between you and Asai, using misteps of others (with a bit of of conscious or unconscious extra misunderstanding) in order to outdo them only feeds the tension and exacerbates said rivalries, creating a climate of fear and hostility. There is enough space for all of us here, no need to outdo anyone.

Please bury the hatchet, because it is quite unpleasant to see this sort of thing in the main hall where there is a very friendly climate of collaboration, friendship and understanding for ages now. This behaviour is certainly unworthy of someone of your contributions to the MTW community in my eyes.

[Gilrandir]

One more thing I never use spies for is trials for loyalty as I don't see any use in it. I mean that when you do that there can be 2 outcomes: 1) the general is found guilty and executed (thus you get rid of him); 2) the general is found not guilty and stays with you, but his loyalty plummets (thus you have to get rid of him asap). In any case the ultimate objective comes down to getting rid of the general anyway. So, why not do it sooner and simpler by disbanding the general's unit without any trials? Of course I don't know whether you can trial an heir and in this case it may be the only way to get rid of him (you can't disband his unit). But otherwise I believe my attitude to be correct. If there is any flaw in my reasoning, I'll be glad to learn it.

[gollum]

No flaw, just remember that the spy gets extra valor for plotting the trial. In this way you can train spies to hgh valor and then use them for mischief in enemy areas. Viewed from that way, essentially the point is not to rid of the general but train the spy.

[Gilrandir]

Does the spy get valor in case the defendant was found guilty or not guilty or either way?

[gollum]

If memory serves, for every succesful assigned mission ie for a succesful trial.

edit: one easy and relatively fast way to valor up spies and assassins is not to build border forts in a province with a port preferably and station a spy or assassin there. As enemy assassins and spies make their way through there your agent will cath them and valor up pretty quickly. Once he is of a decent valor, you can use him elsewhere for assassination, trials etc, while putting a newby agent there to recharge the valor.

[Gilrandir]

People here speak of spies fomenting rebellions in other faction's provinces. How exactly do you perform this fomenting? Do you have to do something with your spy? I had thought that being present in an alien province the spy lowers its loyalty by default. So in my last Egyptian campaign I tried to do that against Italians. They owned Crete and it was cut off from their king in Granada (no ships to connect them). Since the province had neither border fort nor watchtower I put there two of my best spies (both valor 4) and waited. In six or seven turns the loyalty didn't drop a single per cent! So I stopped fooling around and sent an expeditional force there. Well, I repeat the question put at the beginning of the post: How do you do that?

[drone]

It works by just moving your spy into the province. Only your highest valour spy in the province counts, and I believe the effect is 40% + 20% per star, so you should have seen an 80% drop. Buildings and tax policy counter this of course, and it's possible the AI put one of his own spies in the province to counter the effect (counterspy uses the same formula to raise the happiness).

[LordK9]

Assassins work quicker, I believe but that disbanding trick seems to me the most efficient way. Actually, inquisitions from the enemy seem to do the best job of all getting rid of flawed generals (it seems so, anyway). I use a lot of spies but mainly in defense - to combat enemy assassins.

[Gilrandir]

Assassins work quicker, I believe but that disbanding trick seems to me the most efficient way. Actually, inquisitions from the enemy seem to do the best job of all getting rid of flawed generals (it seems so, anyway). I use a lot of spies but mainly in defense - to combat enemy assassins.

Assassins don't cause rebellions which I had in mind. Well, it seems that spies don't either (in my case didn't).

[LordK9]

They (assassins) might be able to - if an assassin fails, it will say something like, "even though the origin is unknown, the general is suspicious" which may mean lower loyalty. Also, I THINK that for a rebellion to happen, it needs a leader with both low loyalty and high dread. One of the spy warning messages mentions this.

[Gilrandir]

They (assassins) might be able to - if an assassin fails, it will say something like, "even though the origin is unknown, the general is suspicious" which may mean lower loyalty. Also, I THINK that for a rebellion to happen, it needs a leader with both low loyalty and high dread. One of the spy warning messages mentions this.

I meant not the garrison rebelling but appearance of rebels in the province that will oppose the loyal garrison. Assassins can't turn the PROVINCE disloyal.

[LordK9]

Sorry; I keep getting civil wars and loyalist/peasant revolts mixed up.