EBOT 2011 June

[Burebista]

Vartan , maybe add goidillic units to casse factional? Also Milnaht? I dont think there is a risk of getting Casse overplayed :))

Also please remove the 10 archer special rule for sauromatae. It's so OP. Or if you don't agree , change my faction to Sauromatae.
Looking at the rules , i can actually have with Sauros 4 roxolani nobles & 6 Aorsi nobles . U try to deal with that while being Barbarian.

[gamegeek2]

Goidilic isn't factional for Casse? Oops, violated that rule several times :)

Looked at more above Sauro comments. Sauro civ is viable, if you know what you're doing that is.

[vartan]

Is that a yes on switching to Sauro Burebista? The Sauros already pay more for armour, and they don't need any melee only cav that they don't already have, am I right?

[Burebista]

Is that a yes on switching to Sauro Burebista? The Sauros already pay more for armour, and they don't need any melee only cav that they don't already have, am I right?

Look , reading from your rules , as Sauro i get 8 Mercs & 10 archer limit & SAC & a non heavy classification for Sauromatae nobles /Aorsi nobles.
That means that with 36 K i can afford 4 Roxolani nobles , 6 sauromatae nobles , 8 komatai (Merc rule) and 2 vojinos . + some chevs.

If you can tell me any barbarian composition that can stand up to that many missiles then i give up .

But if not , please sign me up as sauromatae bcz this will be the most OP shit i've ever done.

[vartan]

That's a good point. I appreciate it because I didn't know what Sauro could purchase with 36k. GG2 told me Sauro nobles need to be put back on as heavy. I believe that we need to do more. Let us look at armor levels.

1. 10 - Lonchophoroi Hippeis (Hellenic Medium Cavalry)
2. 10 - Baktrioi Hippeis (Baktrian Medium Cavalry)
3. 9 - Aursa Uaezdaettae (Aorsi Noble Cavalry)
4. 12 - Skuda Uaezdaettae (Scythian Noble Cavalry)
5. 12 - Rauxsa-alanna Uaezdaettae (Roxolani Noble Cavalry)
6. 10 - Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Sarmatian Noble Horse-Archers)

There are several reasons I am citing these examples. Firstly, EB Online (and its prototype predecessor July 2009 tourney) has traditionally (and perhaps infamously?) deemed heavy two key cavalry units that were deemed "medium" cavalry by the EB Team. These are units #1 and #2 above (Lonch and Bak Hippeis). They have a turning point value of 10 for armour. So we have also traditionally held units #4,5,6 as heavy cavalry units. The Aorsi in #3 haven't been considered heavy ever in our tournaments to my knowledge.

Now I'm not saying there aren't discrepancies and problems with this approach. When various of us members came to this ambiguous conclusion that for whatever reason #1 and #2 must be heavy, we did not apply a certain take-off value for armour or armour+shield after which point the cav was heavy. Look at Prodromoi:

• 11 - Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)

The Prodromoi cavalry has never been considered heavy. It has always been considered non-heavy. If I remember correctly (feel free to correct me antisocialmunky), we had it non-heavy because it would fall so easily to missile fire. The thing was simply shock hit-n-run and no staying power (is that what it's called?)

So what do you think? As of this writing, #1 through #6 except Aorsi nobles are heavy, and Prodromoi is still non-heavy. How do we call a cavalry unit "heavy"? Can we systematize this?

[Burebista]

Well , i think it's not so much a problem concerning defence as it it is a matter of cost efficiency. If a cav unit with 22 defence is melee only , it's ok to clasify it as medium , but when it's multi-functional , and i mean HA-Charging-melee resistant , i think it's better to clasify as heavy for balancing reasons as that unit in spammable quantities would provide the user with a much too greater avantage , especially with factions susceptible to steppe which will try to survive the initial onslaught of arrows and hope for the best later.

When complaining about the Sauro's roster , i was doing so bcz of the inability to use many of their units. Getting a special merc rule fixes that i believe. The redo of Reidonez, available to sauros , furthers that impression too. But when it comes to 10 archer limit upon a faction which has the best HA per money cost , well , i feel that it gets too OP .

Keep in mind that phalanxes are now susceptible to arrow fire , which further boosts their capabilities.

In short , i believe it to be balanced if you put Aorsi nobles(6 missile attack , 30 charge , 2500mnai) as heavy , keep the 8 merc rule and remove the 10 archer special rule for them. i think this game should be about skill too , which is completely negated in the case of meetings such as Casse vs Sauros today.

[antisocialmunky]

I did the heavy cav classification for cavalry that had really heavy armor + defense + lance attack of 4 because NOTHING CAN KILL THOSE except other heavy cav economically so the only way to beat them was your own heavy cav. I'm not sure how much better the medium cav is but if they can beat the heavy charging cav in melee than I wouldn't mind relaxing the limit.

My personal criteria is that if the unit with 1 chevron can't take out 75% of a Companion Cavalry unit using melee before it routs, its not a heavy cavalry.

I have no idea how the new balance works out but I do know that hippies are worse than prodromoi now by a huge margin. They weren't that bad previously so I'm not sure how it was rebalanced. I really have no idea. On the other hand, cavalry seems a bit weaker on the charge over all. I'd play some serious games before making any further judgements.