This is The Best My Country Has To Offer

[PanzerJaeger]

Little-known fact about Paul Revere: he was one of the officers in charge of the greatest naval defeat in U.S. history*.-edit-

*Previous to Pearl Harbor, obviously, although that could be described more accurately as a air/sea defeat, or a combined arms defeat. For a pure naval disaster, I would hold up the Penobscot Expedition as the worst loss of all time for the U.S.A.

What about Savo Island?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What about Savo Island?

He might have excepted that because it antedates Pearl Harbor, though the second sentence seems to emphasize all time rather than pre-Pearl Harbor. Savo really was a debacle, wasn't it? And it is not as though the Java Sea hadn't happened. The USN was, or at least should have been, a LOT more respectful of both the IJN's night-fighting drill and the 615mm torps.

[PanzerJaeger]

Savo really was a debacle, wasn't it? And it is not as though the Java Sea hadn't happened. The USN was, or at least should have been, a LOT more respectful of both the IJN's night-fighting drill and the 615mm torps.

Indeed. Even after Force Z, even after Pearl Harbor, even after Java, and even after the Coral Sea, a false sense of superiority still permeated throughout the American Navy - no doubt based at least in part on institutional racism. Of course, the victory at Midway probably played a part as well.

I would argue that we still had a navy after Savo Island the the associated Guadalcanal battles. The Penobscot Expedition wiped out the northern navy and gave the Brits free reign on our coasts. If not for the cheese-loving French ...

Also, the Penobscot Expedition had financial repercussions that went on for some time. The debt incurred by the loss of all of those ships was staggering for the small economy of the newborn U.S.A. By the time of Guadalcanal, by contrast, we had a much bigger economy capable of absorbing much harder shocks.

I think that's a strong argument from a macro standpoint. Of course, had Mikawa pressed his advantage and destroyed the supply ships, he could have turned Savo Island into a catastrophe instead of the speed bump it turned out to be.

However, if we compare the actual battles - or lack thereof - I think Savo comes out on 'top' in terms of the greatest actual naval defeat suffered by the US Navy.* IIRC, the commodore in charge of the naval element of the Penobscot Expedition refused to engage the small British naval force guarding the besieged fort, and then routed immediately when the larger relief force arrived on the scene without firing a shot, so there wasn't actually much of a naval engagement at all.

On the other hand, Mikawa sailed straight down the slot with a smaller force and surprised, outfought, and routed the largely American force inflicting heavy casualties while taking few of his own.

I think the Penobscot Expedition is a better candidate for 'Greatest American Military Leadership Failure' rather than the greatest naval defeat.

Eeek, I appear to have gotten all Monastery in the Backroom. My bad.

In a thread like this, splitting hairs about naval battles seems a much more productive use of our time.


*I'm going to disqualify Pearl Harbor as a naval defeat in the classic sense as it was not achieved in open battle.

[Lemur]

What about Savo Island?

I would argue that we still had a navy after Savo Island the the associated Guadalcanal battles. The Penobscot Expedition wiped out the northern navy and gave the Brits free reign on our coasts. If not for the cheese-loving French ...

Also, the Penobscot Expedition had financial repercussions that went on for some time. The debt incurred by the loss of all of those ships was staggering for the small economy of the newborn U.S.A. By the time of Guadalcanal, by contrast, we had a much bigger economy capable of absorbing much harder shocks.

Eeek, I appear to have gotten all Monastery in the Backroom. My bad.

[Ronin]

The Insanity is spreading

CBS actually running a news about if Palin is right or not....

also she says she was tricked with a 'gotcha' question...

the insidious question posed by that tricky reporter was:
'what have you seen so far today, and what are you gonna take away from your visit?'

those tricky reporters with their words and stuff....the nerve of those people!

[Xiahou]

I heard about an interesting interview on NPR (yes, I listen to NPR) about the Palin comments. I'll post the money shot here, but I encourage you to read the whole transcript.

BLOCK: So you think basically, on the whole, Sarah Palin got her history right.

Prof. ALLISON: Well, yeah, she did. And remember, she is a politician. She's not an historian. And God help us when historians start acting like politicians, and I suppose when politicians start writing history.

I mean, let's be rational for a second... She just got out of a guided tour, would she really be so completely braindead to be 180 degrees wrong on what had just been explained to her? I think her response was inarticulate, but I don't think it was completely inaccurate.

[Ronin]

She just got out of a guided tour, would she really be so completely braindead to be 180 degrees wrong on what had just been explained to her?

judging by past public statements she made?....it's possible :D

we are talking about someone who has accused questions like "what did you just saw?" and "what do you normally read?" of being 'gotcha' questions.

I mean...how much cognitive failure are we we supposed to brush off as normal?

[Crazed Rabbit]

I heard about an interesting interview on NPR (yes, I listen to NPR) about the Palin comments. I'll post the money shot here, but I encourage you to read the whole transcript.


I mean, let's be rational for a second... She just got out of a guided tour, would she really be so completely braindead to be 180 degrees wrong on what had just been explained to her? I think her response was inarticulate, but I don't think it was completely inaccurate.

That's a very generous interpretation by the professor, one that sums the inarticulate quote by Palin and takes the various things that could have been accurate if she had spoken more articulately and mentally rearranges them into something that makes sense.

And, you know, he who warned the British that they weren't going to be taking away our arms by ringing those bells and making sure, as he is riding his horse through town, to send those warning shots and bells, that we were going to be secure and we were going to be free.

He certainly didn't warn the British regulars by ringing bells. It seems she just regurgitated a jumble of half-remembered events while trying to work in a political point.

CR

[drone]

That's a very generous interpretation by the professor, one that sums the inarticulate quote by Palin and takes the various things that could have been accurate if she had spoken more articulately and mentally rearranges them into something that makes sense.

He certainly didn't warn the British regulars by ringing bells. It seems she just regurgitated a jumble of half-remembered events while trying to work in a political point.

An old phrase about broken clocks comes to mind...

[Xiahou]

That's a very generous interpretation by the professor, one that sums the inarticulate quote by Palin and takes the various things that could have been accurate if she had spoken more articulately and mentally rearranges them into something that makes sense.

There's been alot of "generous interpretation" going around on conservative sites (most of it focusing on how Revere "warned" the British when he spilled his guts when captured), I only took not of this story given that it came from NPR- not an outlet I'd normally expect to carry water for Palin.

Also, since we seem to have some Revere character debate here.... What do people make of the information he so readily gave up once captured? To me, the account came off as him probably trying to save his own skin, but the more popular take on it was that Revere was trying to intimidate the British and give people more time to prepare. I also read that he was captured, while another rider he was with at the time escaped the British. Here is a letter Revere wrote about the episode.

Update: Just saw Factcheck.org chimed in on the Palin kerfuffle.