EB Online EDU v2.1 - RELEASE!

[-Stormrage-]

Forget historical accuracy for one second kival, The gameplay is suffering because roman archers are medieval tanks, to put it simple they need a decrease in armour for the sake of good gameplay , in GAMEPLAY slingers kill armoured units thats what they are there FOR, imperial archers are armoured units with no shield infact and right now even under concentrated slinger (ANTI-armour) fire they are not dying , this is faulty gameplay .

EDIT: ok i want to "argue about the missile attack value" increase slinger damage so we have something that can counter these imperial tanks. I personally dont think that will happen. hoe about decreasing the armour of all archer units (bosphorans scyhtians crytians imperials) so that they die a bit faster and at the same time they will still be balanced the best armoured will remain the best armoured, the only diference is they will no longer be tanks.

[The Celtic Viking]

If you want to forget about historical accuracy, boy are you playing the wrong game, Storm.

[vartan]

If you want to forget about historical accuracy, boy are you playing the wrong game, Storm.

I was thinking that he's been playing the wrong game since day 1. I hope I'm wrong.

Storm if 1 volley got the amount of kills you wanted, I'd make sure to see to it they didn't. You realize how short a time span 1 volley is? You can't close that distance quickly enough. So to lose 90 percent of your men by the time you've reached that missile unit is not good. I hope you see how far-fetched your claims/desires/wishes are.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I think it is also worth noting that archers are generally support units, not the main reason for victory. If archers rack up the most kills on the battlefield it is usually because they engaged in a missile duel first or maybe targeted some low armor units.

There are many ways to counter an opponent that brings superior archers as well. You can get him to waste most of his ammo on inferior and much cheaper archers and slingers or you can simply recruit extra infantry or cavalry and swamp his men so you can engage his archers in melee or drive them off. Too many people get suckered into thinking that missile duels decide battles. They typically don't. Usually they just force one player into doing something rash which is the cause of his defeat.

[antisocialmunky]

The Romans were able to recruit some of the best archers in the world and deck them out in the best possible equipment. Roman archers are extremely good but like all the top tier archers are low on ammunition (25ish). I mean, it is quite annoying that missiles are basically impossible to counter asymmetrically but its not as game breaking as it used to be with the ammo nerfs.

Slingers do need a slight buff. 1 attack slingers are basically worthless units.

[Lazy O]

Did they not use Syrian Archers? Do the syrian archers have 10 armor? Were not the kretkioi and bosporans supposed to be the best in the game? Inconsistencies....

[Kival]

@asm

With a chevron they are not useless but I'd think one could increase the attack of the 1-attack ones to 2-attack.
The roman archers have 30 arrows as the bospharans and syrians have, too. The cretans have only 25.

Did they not use Syrian Archers? Do the syrian archers have 10 armor? Were not the kretkioi and bosporans supposed to be the best in the game? Inconsistencies....

You could read <s>my quotes</s> the unit description and you would get an answer. In short: They are mostly eastern archers (syrians but not only syrians) but they get (slightly) better armour! They should still lose against Syrian archers because Syrians have 9 armour and 2 shield... you need to pay attention though because the shield does not always count as we know. Bospharan Archers are perhaps the only archers which surely will win a direct fight against the roman ones (they have 10 armour + 2 shield).

And there is no such thing as a "best archer", the top tier archers have different areas where they excel. The roman archers will perhaps win the most archer duels but they have less missile attack than cretans and elite dacian archers and so are less effective in killing other units.

@Vartan

Shall we discuss roster-questions and/or questions about factional units also here or somewhere else? I'd like to ask why pontos has lost the bosporans as factional units...

[-Stormrage-]

Slingers do need a slight buff. 1 attack slingers are basically worthless units.

I love you man.

i think the best proposal for getting imperial archers, which are not sheilded, to die realistically to slinger fire would be to decrease all archer unit armour. OK i get that imperial archers were awsome great excellent archers, but that does not mean you make them tanks that wont even die to slinger fire. i hope you understand my issue here. Ill make it plain when i want to kill an armoured unit that has no sheild i get the unit which excells in killing armoured units , SLINGERS. what pisses me off is to see my slingers getting butchered by something they should easily Counter. I want you to put yourself in my situation, as saba i got 8 slingers witch chevrons for the sole purpose of killing the imperial archers of my enemy, so i come to the feild with 8 slings my opponent 4 imperial archers, i move my slingers to the side so 4 of my slingers target one of his imperial archers and the rest cant attack me. i make them run to attack the unshelded helpless archers. i look at 4 slingers discharging their stones i move to the imperial archer unit expecting it to get devestated. long story short they got 3 kills and got butchered. I dare anyone to tell me that i am wrong , that slingers were not meant to kill these, that imperials were historically armoured tanks.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I love you man.

i think the best proposal for getting imperial archers, which are not sheilded, to die realistically to slinger fire would be to decrease all archer unit armour. OK i get that imperial archers were awsome great excellent archers, but that does not mean you make them tanks that wont even die to slinger fire. i hope you understand my issue here. Ill make it plain when i want to kill an armoured unit that has no sheild i get the unit which excells in killing armoured units , SLINGERS. what pisses me off is to see my slingers getting butchered by something they should easily Counter. I want you to put yourself in my situation, as saba i got 8 slingers witch chevrons for the sole purpose of killing the imperial archers of my enemy, so i come to the feild with 8 slings my opponent 4 imperial archers, i move my slingers to the side so 4 of my slingers target one of his imperial archers and the rest cant attack me. i make them run to attack the unshelded helpless archers. i look at 4 slingers discharging their stones i move to the imperial archer unit expecting it to get devestated. long story short they got 3 kills and got butchered. I dare anyone to tell me that i am wrong , that slingers were not meant to kill these, that imperials were historically armoured tanks.

Storm, I agree that slingers should be somewhat more effective against Imperial Archers than other heavy archers because they have no shield but you are missing the bigger overall picture. And that is?

That the counter to slingers is...wait for it...wait some more...

Archers! Archers will generally always beat slingers, even the lowly toxotai.

Its also worth noting that the Saba have no counter to heavy archers. If you want to win as Saba, you are probably going to have to bring elephants or at least fool your opponent into thinking you have brought elephants so they waste slots on skirmishers. Thats the deal with that faction and there is no way around it. A line of Sabaen soldiers are an archers dream.

[Kival]

i think the best proposal for getting imperial archers, which are not sheilded, to die realistically to slinger fire would be to decrease all archer unit armour.

Sorry, but you do not understand how armour values are calculated. You have a formula for that (Like this helm +2, chainmail +6, etc.). This are all just imaginary numbers but you should get the basic. Imperial archers get the exact amount of armour which is calculated for their equipment. For some units it's more difficult because they did not all have the same equipment but for the imperial archers it's fairly easy because they are very much uniformed in comparison to other units. So one could reduce armour for *all units* if you change the formula (for the example it would be perhaps only +1 for helm, +5 for chainmail). It would be wrong to give two units with the same armour different armour values!

I want you to put yourself in my situation, as saba i got 8 slingers witch chevrons for the sole purpose of killing the imperial archers of my enemy, so i come to the feild with 8 slings my opponent 4 imperial archers, i move my slingers to the side so 4 of my slingers target one of his imperial archers and the rest cant attack me. i make them run to attack the unshelded helpless archers. i look at 4 slingers discharging their stones i move to the imperial archer unit expecting it to get devestated. long story short they got 3 kills and got butchered.

That's not normal. One slinger unit does not get butchered by any archer unit and landed only 3 kills until he's butchered. They can surely lose but they don't do nothing in dozens of volleys.

[Kival]

Forget historical accuracy for one second kival

No, I'll not do that.

The gameplay is suffering because roman archers are medieval tanks, to put it simple they need a decrease in armour for the sake of good gameplay , in GAMEPLAY slingers kill armoured units thats what they are there FOR, imperial archers are armoured units with no shield infact and right now even under concentrated slinger (ANTI-armour) fire they are not dying , this is faulty gameplay .

I've said something about this, too. You just ignored it, I don't know why. It does not make sense to reduce armour of this one unit because you think they should die more easily to them. In fact for the imperial archers one could argue to give them a shield after the unit description!

In fact slingers are better against them than archers and that's what defines them as AP-unit. If you want slingers to kill armoured units better, you'd have two possibilites:

a) Make a proposal for a higher attack value of slingers
b) Make a proposal for lower armour values for *all* units.

It's not logical to reduce armour for one unit with chain mail but not for another with chainmail!

You've done a) but you did not get many people to agree. So you can try to give better arguments but it will not help just to reiterate your old arguments.