US gubmint shutdown + default + subprime sequel?

[Adrian II]

Annoying I can see. Ignorant? The Tea Party has members in every state, but there's a definite regional flavor to the movement, as demonstrated by the makeup of the Tea Party Caucus. The author ain't wrong about that. And he's absolutely correct that when the South doesn't get its way, it has a longstanding history of starting fights.

None of which is to say that I agree with the article, but it's a worthwhile read.

How about this then? Now there's an interesting break-down to complement yours.

Greek Americans

[drone]

How about this then? Now there's an interesting break-down to complement yours.

Greek Americans

I don't know what mess New Mexico has gotten itself into, but Virginia and Maryland/DC are high on that list because they host the federal government. The article using Virginia as it's prime example is questionable at best. Yes it does receive a disproportional amount of federal dollars... location, location, location.

[Vladimir]

Yea, they include Virginia and Maryland side-by-side. New Mexico and Arizona like to claim the cost of covering medical bills for illegals is a problem. There are also quite a few important military bases in New Mexico so they may be affected the same as Virginia and Maryland.

[Centurion1]

it always seemed to me that the tea party is a movement primarily fueled by conservative views on social issues (abortion, gays), a serious racial bias against the current president and also fiscal concerns.
Of course the first 2 reasons are not particularly politically correct in this day and age, so the people that are taking charge of the movement pushed the fiscal aspect of it forward.
Of course there are people in the movement motivated only by fiscal issues and nothing else, but the type of rhetoric that is used to inflame the majority of the tea party base is pretty transparent regarding its bias on social issues.
In other words....the pundits might be talking about fiscal matters, the crowd is not necessarily there for that.

Hey you guys Ronin is right. If someone is of African descent and you disagree with his politic then you are a racist. Disagreeing with Obama is equivalent to being one step away from being Imperial Grand Wizard in your local KKK chapter.

And btw, having a conservative view on Abortion is not politically incorrect except maybe whatever world you inhabit.

[Koga No Goshi]

Hey you guys Ronin is right. If someone is of African descent and you disagree with his politic then you are a racist. Disagreeing with Obama is equivalent to being one step away from being Imperial Grand Wizard in your local KKK chapter.

And btw, having a conservative view on Abortion is not politically incorrect except maybe whatever world you inhabit.

You're using some thick blinders if you think the Tea Party movement almost turning into lynch mobs at its large gatherings and yelling racist epithets is merely "disagreeing with a black man's politics."

[Subotan]

And btw, having a conservative view on Abortion is not politically incorrect except maybe whatever world you inhabit.

Of course not. The issue arises when those views are forced onto other individuals.

[Ronin]

Hey you guys Ronin is right. If someone is of African descent and you disagree with his politic then you are a racist. Disagreeing with Obama is equivalent to being one step away from being Imperial Grand Wizard in your local KKK chapter.

when an entire mainly white and right wing political movement shows up almost overnight, and it just happens to coincide with the rise of a part-black presidential candidate....excuse me if I can add 1+1 together.
also disagreeing with politics is one thing....to do so by implying that the other guy is not really an American but a Kenyan, or a secret Muslim is a completely different beast.
But I must be mistaken...I saw plenty of coverage on tea party rallies and they are clearly not racist....all those signs must have been a terrible mistake.


P.S. - and if the Imperial Grand Wizard of the local KKK chapter is marching down the street with his face uncovered he is at the very least being honest....that's an advantage over closet cases.
and P.S.2 - Isn´t the fact that in some of those places there exists a local chapter of the KKK telling enough?

[Koga No Goshi]

when an entire mainly white and right wing political movement shows up almost overnight, and it just happens to coincide with the rise of a part-black presidential candidate....excuse me if I can add 1+1 together.
also disagreeing with politics is one thing....to do so by implying that the other guy is not really an American but a Kenyan, or a secret Muslim is a completely different beast.
But I must be mistaken...I saw plenty of coverage on tea party rallies and they are clearly not racist....all those signs must have been a terrible mistake.


P.S. - and if the Imperial Grand Wizard of the local KKK chapter is marching down the street with his face uncovered he is at the very least being honest....that's an advantage over closet cases.
and P.S.2 - Isn´t the fact that in some of those places there exists a local chapter of the KKK telling enough?

Exactly. If you want opposition to a black President to be understood as political, then keep it political. 4 years of demanding birth certificates and claiming he's a white-hating Christian-Muslim-Socialist-Communist-Kenyan can only be understood one way.

[drone]

Welcome back, Koga.

[PanzerJaeger]

Really? Then why are Republican state legislators working like Japanese beavers across the country to restrict abortion rights across America? Why is Michelle Bachmann, darling of the Tea Party "Movement", so concerned with homosexuals? Why did the Tea Party mobilise to protest the "Ground Zero Mosque", the mosque-that-wasn't several blocks from the WTC site?

Well, the Tea Party is not a single cohesive movement and it is not entirely clear whether Michelle Bachmann actually speaks for them, or has decided that she speaks for them. However, as I mentioned, the vast majority of Tea Party members were conservative republicans before the movement started, so there will naturally be overlap in their views on social issues. Also, as with most movements, many of the local groups have taken steps to cleanse their membership of some of the more socially liberal voices and have moved towards a more traditional, although radicalized, platform of social issues that span beyond the founding principles.

All that being said, the Tea Party did begin as an all-encompassing movement focused solely on government size and spending in reaction to the Stimulus bill, bailouts, Cap & Trade proposals, and the Affordable Care Act. Despite the movement into social policy by some of the groups, the overarching mission of the movement is still ostensibly focused on fiscal issues.

The Tea Party movement (TPM) is an American populist[1][2][3] political movement that is generally recognized as conservative and libertarian,[4][5] and has sponsored protests and supported political candidates since 2009.[6][7][8] It endorses reduced government spending,[9][10] opposition to taxation in varying degrees,[10] reduction of the national debt and federal budget deficit,[9] and adherence to an originalist interpretation of the United States Constitution.[11]

The name "Tea Party" is a reference to the Boston Tea Party, a protest by colonists who objected to a British tax on tea in 1773 and demonstrated by dumping British tea taken from docked ships into the harbor.[12] Some commentators have referred to the Tea in "Tea Party" as the acronym "Taxed Enough Already".[13][14]

Leaving aside particular criticisms of these various positions, it's disingenous to claim that the Tea Party is primarily a fiscally conservative movement; after all, why did they want to their legislators to take action that would have caused America's interest on its debt to skyrocket if they were fiscally conservative?

Because, as Lemur's article highlighted, they are not particularly knowledgeable about the intricacies of fiscal policy. That does not mean that they are not very fiscally conservative. They simply have a limited understanding of the negative externalities involved in abruptly cutting spending in broad swathes.

I thought the Tea Party was anti-GOP establishment.

They are. Inter-party distinctions mean little in solid districts. Whoever makes it out of the primary gets elected as the opponent gets no consideration.

[PanzerJaeger]

Exactly. If you want opposition to a black President to be understood as political, then keep it political. 4 years of demanding birth certificates and claiming he's a white-hating Christian-Muslim-Socialist-Communist-Kenyan can only be understood one way.

Not really.

Barack Obama is very different than every other American president in many more ways than his race. His background is highly untraditional for our ruling class, which makes him particularly subject to conspiracy theories about it. If he had been white with the same background, I would wager the same kind of attacks would be levied against him.

[Papewaio]

It's a catch-22 situation that will require some smart thinking + hard work + belt tightening... but only at the right spots.

Reducing government spending can have the same effect on the economy as raising taxes. There are plenty of private businesses getting their check or a portion of it from the government in some manner. So if too much is cut quickly then a lot of private businesses will feel the pain as much if not more then a tax rise would have done... at least with a tax on business it only comes out of the net, cut's on spending are hitting the bottom line.

Looks like a few more like this one are needed:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/tag/ashton-carter/

[a completely inoffensive name]

Not really.

Barack Obama is very different than every other American president in many more ways than his race. His background is highly untraditional for our ruling class, which makes him particularly subject to conspiracy theories about it. If he had been white with the same background, I would wager the same kind of attacks would be levied against him.

I really doubt if he was white he would still be called a Kenyan. Take off them shades man.

[PanzerJaeger]

I really doubt if he was white he would still be called a Kenyan. Take off them shades man.

Oh I bet he would if he was a first generation son of a Kenyan and he had a funny sounding name.

People seem to forget that nearly the exact same rhetoric was lobbed against Carter and Clinton by the far right - weak, socialist, un-American, plotting to bring the country down. The only variation this time is the foreigner angle, which of course wouldn't have worked against a Mr. James Earl Carter or a Mr. William Jefferson Clinton. You couldn't find a couple of more WASP-sounding names if you tried. Of course, both men also had their own equally appalling rumors circulated that President Obama does not have to contend with. For example, the idea that Clinton had people killed in Arkansas briefly crossed over from far Right circles into the mainstream consciousness just as the birth certificate issue did for Obama. And of course on the other side GWB had to deal with the Truther movement which also went mainstream.

The polar extremes on both sides look for any perceived weakness or angle to exploit and run with it. Barack Hussein Obama is quite possibly the lowest of low hanging fruit. How many Americans do you know with a name like that? And didn't we go to war twice in the Middle East to take out another Hussein? It's just too easy not to exploit, but that exploitation is based more in the great American tradition of spreading vicious and unfounded rumors about political opponents than racism. Its essence is that he is different, not that he is black.

Now, that is not at all to say that there aren't people out there who dislike the man because he's black, but the idea that the greater political opposition to the man expressed in movements like the Tea Party is based solely on race is based on unfounded (and easily refuted) assumption, and you know what they say about making assumptions.

***

I happened to come across this refutation of Michael Lind's piece that Lemur posted earlier on Google News.

Michael Lind is a very smart and wonderfully erudite writer with a bit of an obsession. His understanding of the deeper cultural wellsprings of American history and politics has left him, as a sort of side effect, with an abiding fearful hostility toward a particular group of people, the "Anglo-Celtic" Southerner. Lind sees them everywhere in our politics as a baleful, disturbing presence spreading bacilli of violence, bigotry and religious fanaticism. And in his recent Salon essay arguing that the Tea Party movement is an essentially Southern phenomenon, his prejudices blind him to a rather important and unprecedented phenomenon: the virtual disappearance of geography as a significant factor in the ideological character of the Republican Party.

***

Moving beyond Lind's own narrowly defined "proof" for Southern domination of the Tea Party, the whole idea is preposterous if you look at the actual spread of the Tea Party in its 2009-2010 heyday. Tea Party-affiliated candidates won heavily contested Republican Senate nomination contests in Alaska, Utah, Colorado, Nevada and Delaware; gubernatorial primaries in New York, Colorado and Maine; House primaries in Idaho, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Delaware, Maryland, New York and New Jersey. Notable Tea Party political heroes include Bachmann of Minnesota, Sarah Palin of Alaska, Mike Lee of Utah, Scott Walker of Wisconsin, Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania, and Chris Christie of New Jersey. The crucible of Tea Party influence over the 2012 Republican presidential nomination process is in Iowa. Even some ostensibly Southern or quasi-Southern Tea Partyers aren't Southern in any cultural sense, including the Cuban-American Marco Rubio of Florida, and the Pauls, father and son, from Pittsburgh, Pa.

[Koga No Goshi]

Welcome back, Koga.

Thank you sir. It's been a long time.

Not really.

Barack Obama is very different than every other American president in many more ways than his race. His background is highly untraditional for our ruling class, which makes him particularly subject to conspiracy theories about it. If he had been white with the same background, I would wager the same kind of attacks would be levied against him.

And this has to do with erasing grassroots "Teabaggers" showing up in large numbers and yelling racial epithets... how?

The Tea Party pretty much earned its reputation as a general reactionary movement of privilege-minded white Americans from how it has behaved, comported itself, AND its political stances. It's not one bit of them taken out of context, it's their entire identity at this point.

As Pap pointed out, I doubt a white candidate would have the n-word thrown around about him at Tea Party rallies. But no, race has nothing to do with it at any level.

[Koga No Goshi]

Welcome back, Koga.

Thank you sir. It's been a long time.

Not really.

Barack Obama is very different than every other American president in many more ways than his race. His background is highly untraditional for our ruling class, which makes him particularly subject to conspiracy theories about it. If he had been white with the same background, I would wager the same kind of attacks would be levied against him.

And this has to do with erasing grassroots "Teabaggers" showing up in large numbers and yelling racial epithets... how?

The Tea Party pretty much earned its reputation as a general reactionary movement of privilege-minded white Americans from how it has behaved, comported itself, AND its political stances. It's not one bit of them taken out of context, it's their entire identity at this point.

As Gutmensch pointed out, I doubt a white candidate would have the n-word thrown around about him at Tea Party rallies. But no, race has nothing to do with it at any level.

[PanzerJaeger]

And this has to do with erasing grassroots "Teabaggers" showing up in large numbers and yelling racial epithets... how?

This seems to be based on some documented event(s). Factual accounts are great. Before I respond, can you link to some of those accounts that document the use of racial epithets by 'large numbers' of Tea Party members so we have a basis for the discussion?

[Koga No Goshi]

How about the fact that Palin and McCain had to be called upon multiple times to address this issue in their gatherings? You do remember that?

McCain did eventually (after MUCH public pressure to say something over a fairly long period) address this in his appearances and told people to stop with the Muslim terrorist characterizations, but if Palin ever did the same, I'm unaware of it. This was a big enough issue in national level Presidential campaigns that two frontrunners had to be called on to say something about it, and you want to construe it as just some tiny dismissable fringe? Okay.

[PanzerJaeger]

How about the fact that Palin and McCain had to be called upon multiple times to address this issue in their gatherings? You do remember that?

The issue that then candidate Obama was black?

Also, the Tea Party did not exist during the 2008 campaign.

Again, if we're going to have a solid discussion of the issue: Before I respond, can you link to some of those accounts that document the use of racial epithets by 'large numbers' of Tea Party members so we have a basis for the discussion?

[Koga No Goshi]

http://houstontps.org/audio/4995.jpg

http://thinkingmeat.net/wp-content/u...rtysign1sm.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slides...0072_large.jpg

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp...a55b5c6067.jpg

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/u..._tea_party.jpg

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/.../tea_party.jpg

http://snotrockets.net/images/racist13.jpg

Do a simple google image search. It reveals pages and pages. We aren't making this up.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Also, the Tea Party did not exist during the 2008 campaign.

Ron Paul supporters say try again.

[PanzerJaeger]

http://houstontps.org/audio/4995.jpg

http://thinkingmeat.net/wp-content/u...rtysign1sm.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slides...0072_large.jpg

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp...a55b5c6067.jpg

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/u..._tea_party.jpg

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/.../tea_party.jpg

http://snotrockets.net/images/racist13.jpg

Do a simple google image search. It reveals pages and pages. We aren't making this up.

Actually, a google image search of 'tea party racist' reveals far less than a page of actual racist signs, with pages and pages of the same signs over and over among other unrelated images. Rather amazing for a group numbering in the hundreds of thousands and possibly millions. Maybe I'm not using the right terms?

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it is often not really evidence at all. You see, an actual analysis of Tea Party signage suggests a completely different picture. I know for a fact that the fellow in your first picture was ejected from that event, kicked out of his local Tea Party organization, and publically denounced by various Tea Party umbrella groups.

Do you have any actual evidence of 'large numbers' of Tea Partiers using racial epithets against Obama or anyone else?

Certainly you're not trying to claim that a few isolated incidents are representative of the greater collective? Under such conditions, one could easily claim that those against the Tea Party are racists themselves.

[Koga No Goshi]

I could just as easily turn around and say your defense of the Tea Party is based on circumstantial or anecdotal cases of where they're actually coherent or avoiding overtly radical or offensive rhetoric, because with a fragmented group like this there's always wiggle room for someone to do exactly as you are doing, and merely flicking your wrist to wave off the unsavory character of the party as just a fringe minimal element.

Let's put it this way PanzerJaeger... when you have to routinely conduct damage control because people who support your cause are always showing up with signs alluding to wishing for Kennedy solutions or making racially charged denouncements of the President, that says something. Of course the Tea Party isn't going to put "we have a lot of people who hate blacks" in its official charter for me to pull out and show you. So what? All you are doing is spin doctoring something that is pretty obvious to anyone who's paid the least bit of attention to the movement (and isn't a staunch supporter of it.)

I also find it interesting that you harp on anecdotal evidence and your entire handwaving of signs you can see at Tea Party events involves pointing out ONE incident where a particularly offensive sign bearer was thrown out. Like that's not defending your position about the overall Tea Party based off one cherrypicked anecdote.

[a completely inoffensive name]

-sticks fingers in ears- lalalalalallalala

[PanzerJaeger]

I could just as easily turn around and say your defense of the Tea Party is based on circumstantial or anecdotal cases of where they're actually coherent or avoiding overtly radical or offensive rhetoric, because with a fragmented group like this there's always wiggle room for someone to do exactly as you are doing, and merely flicking your wrist to wave off the unsavory character of the party as just a fringe minimal element.

This feels quite a bit like an appeal to ignorance. You're making the claim, you need to prove it. So far, you've offered some very limited anecdotal evidence that is disputed by at least one statistical analysis. I can find limited anecdotal evidence that paints nearly any large group of people in all sorts of negative lights.

Is that it? Have you ever been to a political rally? Crazy people write crazy things on signs. You'll have to do considerably better if you want to portray the six signs you posted as representative of the feelings of the entire movement.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Let's put it this way PanzerJaeger... when you have to routinely conduct damage control because people who support your cause are always showing up with signs alluding to wishing for Kennedy solutions or making racially charged denouncements of the President, that says something. Of course the Tea Party isn't going to put "we have a lot of people who hate blacks" in its official charter for me to pull out and show you. So what? All you are doing is spin doctoring something that is pretty obvious to anyone who's paid the least bit of attention to the movement (and isn't a staunch supporter of it.)

And yet, you saying it is the case does not make it so.

I'm still waiting for evidence of 'large numbers' of Tea Partiers using racial epithets or any other widespread demonstration of Tea Party racism. It is somewhat difficult to refute evidence you haven't even provided.

I also find it interesting that you harp on anecdotal evidence and your entire handwaving of signs you can see at Tea Party events involves pointing out ONE incident where a particularly offensive sign bearer was thrown out. Like that's not defending your position about the overall Tea Party based off one cherrypicked anecdote.

Actually, I've gone considerably beyond that in offering a source that directly refutes your 'six signs = Tea Party sentiment' line of reasoning. But really, what else can I do? You've offered nothing but anecdote, and thus I must respond via anecdote. Double shrug for you.

[Koga No Goshi]

You believe as you like, Panzer. You're resorting to burden of proof arguments in the realm of political charcterizations which is a really bad application of logic and most likely just a means to 'win' an argument in the face of overwhelming common sense. After all, I could pull out a hard stat that 85% of Tea Party people dislike blacks and you could say "oh but that's not racism." It's fairly clear in the exchange here that this is your style given that you could not even concede that Obama being called out as a Kenyan or Muslim has anything to do with race at all and tried to make some ridiculous dismissal that the same would happen to anyone with an unusual family heritage... the fact that few Americans would even ask where a white candidate's grandparents came from is just beside the point, right?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Your demand for evidence is a clever way to support your denial because everyone knows that polls never give the truth about the breakdown of groups. Especially when it comes to their thoughts.

Any sort of poll that would try to find out how much racism there is in the organization is going to be immediately worthless due to responder bias. No one comes out and tells Rasmussen that they don't want the black man in the white house because that sentiment is recognized by all as being on the losing side in history.

Oh yeah, no one is racist against the illegal hispanic immigrants were just don't like them taking our jobs even though all of our European ancestors did the same thing...

When it comes to how large groups in society operate and think, everyone that is not part of the group knows what it really is. Those within the group only know what they want it to be. Everyone knows that there are black haters in the tea party and it is what drove it to become big in 2008 despite Bush committing the same economic policies without any sort of peep besides the Ron Paul supporters.

[Koga No Goshi]

Exactly. If the Tea Party legitimately is about fiscal responsibility first and foremost, it should have been a reaction to the two Bush terms... not to Obama's presidency.

That simple fact alone invalidates any claim that their opposition is purely political or only in response to Obama's political stances and nothing else.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This really says it all about the mental loops you are making here.

It's just too easy not to exploit, but that exploitation is based more in the great American tradition of spreading vicious and unfounded rumors about political opponents than racism. Its essence is that he is different, not that he is black.

So they don't degrade him because he is black, they degrade him because of his differences. And the difference they specifically pick out, is his black background. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


So when the first gay president comes in, all the protestors calling him an AIDS infested faggot are not homophobes, they are just taking advantage of his different lifestyle.

[Koga No Goshi]

This really says it all about the mental loops you are making here.



So they don't degrade him because he is black, they degrade him because of his differences. And the difference they specifically pick out, is his black background. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


So when the first gay president comes in, all the protestors calling him an AIDS infested faggot are not homophobes, they are just taking advantage of his different lifestyle.

But you'd have to prove that they said it and if there are signs saying that at any big gathering, they wouldn't count.

See what I did there?