[EB] EDU Balance Proposals

[Lazy O]

How about doing it today? Would take about half an hour to test which archer beats what. I cannot do it with the AI.

[-Stormrage-]

I dont think elite phalanx's need +20 men they are fine just as they are.

Persian archers cant possibly compete with imperials or cretans or bosphorans or syrians what are you talking about. Persian archers dont even have armour and they have what only 4 attack?

@lazyo , im always up for testing.

[Lazy O]

Archer results are up now. Thanks to stormrage for the tests. And gg2, do not do to the thureophoroi what you did to the Libyans, if you increase to 100 men and make them 1500, they become useless for that price since they cannot kill anything, low lethality, and -4 penalty for light_spear attack.

[antisocialmunky]

-Thureophoroi are just a heavy skirmisher basically. They should not be too good - pretty much average. I think they are pretty good where they are as KH. Very hardy would make them extremely potent against barbs so I would down vote this change. They are what they are, put one XP on them for a 1400 unit that is mostly immune to scaries.
-Peltastai are actually great units. The main failing being morale. I would infact, bump their morale up just a tad.
-I do think that Klerouchoi Phalangitai are somewhat redundant but their purpose is to be a widely recruitable phalanx unit. Do you think it would be feasible to reduce Pez be 200 and elites be 160 instead of 240? I know its somewhat heretical to not make something as near to 256 as possible but I think it would better depict Diadochi man-power shortages for high quality Alexandrian phalanx. Have Klerouchoi and cheaper phalanx fill the 240 man roll.
-Persian archers... Agreed to a certain extent.
-I think you should re-stat the Hyps and Mak Peltastai to be a little cheaper. TABs at the elites, these are shock troops that hsould be in the 2.4K range if silver shields are in the 3K range.
-Shortsword is fine depending on the unit.
-Iranian light cavalry is the heaviest light cavalry in the game. They should not be made cheaper.
-The axe units are only ineffective due to upping of the sword sword attack on everything and giving everything 'hardy.' They should be cost down or have their attacks statted up. The western axes were similarly hit but there are more axes in the east than the west.
-Can we take fear off everything not naked or chariot? Its really making a wide range of 'average' units useless. :\
-Hetaroi Aspidophoroi is a missile resistant cav unit so I'm not sure if you want to cost down them. I think there's been insufficient tests on cav since people have been taking mass infantry armies and you should hold off on any rebalancing of that.

I would also oppose taking 'good against' cav off the hillman. I don't think it was a mistake that its on there and it adds some flavor and uniqueness. We want to make every unit useful, not ever unit hot swappable and interchangeable.

My main observation for Baktria is they lack good ranged archers for dualing so giving them access to Persian heavies would solve most of that and we can deal with balancing later. Baktria is fairly powerful but it lacks the missile protection other factions have. I would also say that Persian heavies should be kept mostly where they are. They are somewhat underpowered in vanilla but I think just a tiny change would help them out quite abit.

[Lazy O]

-Thureophoroi are just a heavy skirmisher basically. They should not be too good - pretty much average. I think they are pretty good where they are as KH. Very hardy would make them extremely potent against barbs so I would down vote this change. They are what they are, put one XP on them for a 1400 unit that is mostly immune to scaries.

They are meant to be an in-betweenish sort of unit to the Peltast and Thorakitai, with 11 morale, crappy attack and defence, they just do no justify their

-Peltastai are actually great units. The main failing being morale. I would infact, bump their morale up just a tad.

Thats what we said, 1 point of morale imo, and moar javelins :D I feel javelin units as a whole do need a buff to make people actually use them effectively.

-I do think that Klerouchoi Phalangitai are somewhat redundant but their purpose is to be a widely recruitable phalanx unit. Do you think it would be feasible to reduce Pez be 200 and elites be 160 instead of 240? I know its somewhat heretical to not make something as near to 256 as possible but I think it would better depict Diadochi man-power shortages for high quality Alexandrian phalanx. Have Klerouchoi and cheaper phalanx fill the 240 man roll.

Talk in large scale, and recruitment options and "availability" does not apply here. As of now, they are a worthless unit compared to the Pez, and not as cost effective as the Levies.

-I think you should re-stat the Hyps and Mak Peltastai to be a little cheaper. TABs at the elites, these are shock troops that hsould be in the 2.4K range if silver shields are in the 3K range.

Thats what we said.

-Shortsword is fine depending on the unit.

The low tier units are useless, more lethality and attack will fix that.

-Iranian light cavalry is the heaviest light cavalry in the game. They should not be made cheaper.

Even prodromoi have a better charge, they need a stat buff.

-The axe units are only ineffective due to upping of the sword sword attack on everything and giving everything 'hardy.' They should be cost down or have their attacks statted up. The western axes were similarly hit but there are more axes in the east than the west.

Your point is? We leave crap as is and do not worry about useless stuff cluttering up the roster?

-Can we take fear off everything not naked or chariot? Its really making a wide range of 'average' units useless. :\

Id be pretty frightened facing up to a TAB.

-Hetaroi Aspidophoroi is a missile resistant cav unit so I'm not sure if you want to cost down them. I think there's been insufficient tests on cav since people have been taking mass infantry armies and you should hold off on any rebalancing of that.

Incorrect. No cavalry is immune to missiles. Just being immune to missiles does not mean you are useful. To be useful, you have to do damage, you could get Prodromoi for the same price who do much more damage. The Hetairoi belong to factions who almost all the time have missile superiority so being immune to missiles does not matter much.

I would also oppose taking 'good against' cav off the hillman. I don't think it was a mistake that its on there and it adds some flavor and uniqueness. We want to make every unit useful, not ever unit hot swappable and interchangeable.

What sense does it make for a lowly axe armed peasant to have a non sensical bonus against cavalry? Please elaborate.

My main observation for Baktria is they lack good ranged archers for dualing so giving them access to Persian heavies would solve most of that and we can deal with balancing later. Baktria is fairly powerful but it lacks the missile protection other factions have. I would also say that Persian heavies should be kept mostly where they are. They are somewhat underpowered in vanilla but I think just a tiny change would help them out quite abit.

The Persian archers are protection enough , they make enemies waste so much ammo they make high end archers useless, and are too dangerous to infantry to be left alone.

[Kival]

Hui, so many things... most important for me is:

1. No additional lethality for shortswords! There should be a noticable difference to bigger swords. I'd agree to increase the attack value of shortswordunits and this would make a lot of sense, becuase it's easier to wield a handy weapon as a big monstrum.

2. Axemen should be buffed in some way. I'd give them their old lethality back, because axes are very lethal and deadly it's just more difficult to fight with them properly (so low attack + ap + medium lethality makes sense). I can not agree with axes having the exactly same lethality as _short_swords!

3. It makes sense for me to give thurophoroi very hardy because they should have very high stamina, they are meant to fight light cav, skirms etc. They are actually not so bad and the light_spear attribute only reduces their defense.

4. Persian archers are devastating. Perhaps they lose the missile duel - though I did not think so - but they are really devastating for light infantry with their 100 men=arrows. They are too cheap for that. Archer-spearmen are cheaper and have spears too! They cannot be killed by cavalry, other archers need a lot of time and they can also kill many many light infantry units with their arrows.

5. Additional fear effect for some units (like TAB) makes sense but perhaps it should cost more.

[Lazy O]

Check Aradans EDU guide on TWC, light spear is -4 attack.

[vartan]

What sense does it make for a lowly axe armed peasant to have a non sensical bonus against cavalry? Please elaborate.

I've probably played as the Hai more than all of you combined. That unit is less useful than fecal matter on the battlefield. Maybe you'll get your javs out. Maybe you'll charge in. But unless you have two supporting units, you're going to be sent to hell for it. Even the Baktrian Light Infantry stands a 1-on-1 chance in the stead of the hillmen, even if it comes down to their slightly higher morale.

EDIT: Robin, gg2, 2.0 was tested to some extent, 2.1 less so. When is this roller coaster going to stop going downhill and actually take a swing upward?

[Lazy O]

When you show it a direction and come on hamachi more often :P

------------

Heres to anybody who thinks the Persian archers are balanced

http://www.mediafire.com/?4gn4tgllfd9hzny

Also posting Getai Skirmisher tests soon. Thanks much to vega for that.

[Kival]

EDIT: Robin, gg2, 2.0 was tested to some extent, 2.1 less so. When is this roller coaster going to stop going downhill and actually take a swing upward?

The changes were not so bad. There are not many if any real mistakes. One can complain about some decisions, but they were not game breaking.

[antisocialmunky]

They are meant to be an in-betweenish sort of unit to the Peltast and Thorakitai, with 11 morale, crappy attack and defence, they just do no justify their

They are fine, they feel fine for a 1300 cost unit.

Talk in large scale, and recruitment options and "availability" does not apply here. As of now, they are a worthless unit compared to the Pez, and not as cost effective as the Levies.

Nah, rather see historic stuff represented in some way. Its still EB and would be a feasible way of differentiating phalangites. You didn't even talk about it it, instead you ranted something about them being a crap unit.

The low tier units are useless, more lethality and attack will fix that.

Or you can make them cheaper spam unit by costing them down. Its useful to have decent filler units.

Even prodromoi have a better charge, they need a stat buff.

Unless something has seriously changed, they were the criteria we used for heavy\light cav distinctions.

Your point is? We leave crap as is and do not worry about useless stuff cluttering up the roster?

... I'm saying how to fix them.

Id be pretty frightened facing up to a TAB.

I think its taking away from the game that scary is so prevalent.

Incorrect. No cavalry is immune to missiles. Just being immune to missiles does not mean you are useful. To be useful, you have to do damage, you could get Prodromoi for the same price who do much more damage. The Hetairoi belong to factions who almost all the time have missile superiority so being immune to missiles does not matter much.

Again, missile resistant. Big shield. READ.

What sense does it make for a lowly axe armed peasant to have a non sensical bonus against cavalry? Please elaborate.

No reason but I don't think it was left in unintentionally.

The Persian archers are protection enough , they make enemies waste so much ammo they make high end archers useless, and are too dangerous to infantry to be left alone.

I really wish you would actually read stuff seriously, maybe I could take you seriously because you're just going 'LOL, LISTEN TO ME BECAUSE I PLAYED THIS GAME.' No, Baktria gets shot apart because you cannot deal with heavy and steppe archers. I've played them for 2/3 months last year and they still have this hole and all their very good units are low armor.

Im actually surprised nobody exploited persian archers against Robin yet....

Archers aren't very useful when melee happens that quick :p

@GG2 - I think you guys shouldn't tweak this EDU too much, we still don't know the full effects of the big big EDU changes like the cav and stuff. All you're going to do with big changes is going to make it harder to balance because you're see sawing balance too much. The game feels much better balanced so I don't think anything really drastic is needed. The main thing is some of the light AP units feel a little underpowered. The sized 200 Celtic axes barely breakeven on Thorakites which doesn't feel right.

[vartan]

@GG2 - I think you guys shouldn't tweak this EDU too much, we still don't know the full effects of the big big EDU changes like the cav and stuff. All you're going to do with big changes is going to make it harder to balance because you're see sawing balance too much. The game feels much better balanced so I don't think anything really drastic is needed. The main thing is some of the light AP units feel a little underpowered. The sized 200 Celtic axes barely breakeven on Thorakites which doesn't feel right.

This.

P.S. EDU 2.0 was of course a clear shift from the original. Nevertheless it still utilizes EB's costing schema, and you can still count on many stats in the original unit lists (i.e., the deviations are not as drastic as the version number would imply). As long as changes in stats do not deviate more than a couple of integers or a few percentage points, and the costing is done the same, the changes won't be drastic and will aim to improve specific problems in the game, which is precisely what we're hoping for here (unless I'm mistaken and the majority of people are hoping for a new costing and stat schema).