Who was innocent

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a “break the blockade” game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active “youth” part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

[HoreTore]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a “break the blockade” game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active “youth” part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

[Subotan]

The topic at hand is based on two distinct misunderstandings that serve as the premise to a frankly odious argument.

To those who are arguing it is indoctrination; it isn't. Indoctrination has to be done involuntarily, in that no choice is presented to the subject of the indoctrination to accept or refuse it. The Utøya event was an event for members of the Labour Party, who are members of their own free will, that they could choose to go to. Since there is no such thing as voluntary indoctrination, the Utøya event can't have been indoctrination.

Also, as HoreTore has made clear; this was a Youth Camp insofar as it was open to members of the party who were not middle-aged or over. Lots of parties have similar affiliated organisations; e.g. I'm a member of the Youth Wing of the British Labour Party, as are all members up to the age of 27.

With those two assumptions out of the way, I'm going to throw down the gauntlet to Fragony, skullhead etc. By framing the issue like this, by presenting the event as something which should never have happened, you are trying to shift the blame for the murders away from the frothing, racist and radical European far-right, who have for years tried to legitimise the discourse they engage in, to the victims of this terrible tragedy.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

I picked this quote to jump in because it's typically Scandanavian in many ways, mostly in that it does not hold up for the rest of the world.

The primary purpose of a political party is for like minded politicians to group together in a country's legislature in order to advance a common political program. In forming a political part you are, as agroup, trying to articulate a coherent political vision which both appeals to and benefits the electorate, or at least a portion of it. Engaging the young is about the sustainability of a political project, it is a part of long term stategy, not immediate political objectives.

Now, onto the camps:

Creepy? Not really, when you examine them. Weird? A bit, yes.

This is obviously a Norwegian thing, but it looks to me like "religion", the socialisation of young people into a particular mindset in the same way that Evangelical groups in the UK do outreach. It's actually very similar, camps, songs, debates and talks from eminent guest speakers.

This chimes with my impression of the reaction from Norwegians to the attack, the two words that came up the most were "love" and "forgiveness". The pitch was entirely Christian, but I know Norway is a very secular country with quite low levels of observance, notwithstanding the automatic flocking to the Cathedral in Oslo as a focal point for mourning.

My tentative conclusion is that Norwegians have replaced religion with secular politics in what almost looks like a "bait and switch", which explains why Norway lacks the social vacume of, say, Britain, and why their political engagement is so energetic.

[HoreTore]

Love has been a mantra. I haven't heard forgiveness mentioned once.

Christian? I'd go for "hippie lovefest 2011".

As for the primary purpose of a democratic party:

It's the same in Britland too. I'll say it in a different way, maybe you'll get what I'm trying to say:

The primary purpose of any political party in a democratic state is to uphold democracy.



Quite obviously, if we lose a generation, then we will lose our democracy in 30 years or so. So, in order to save and continue our democratic society, we must engage each new generation in democracy. Thus, the primary purpose of our political parties is to engage the youth.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Love has been a mantra. I haven't heard forgiveness mentioned once.Christian? I'd go for "hippie lovefest 2011".As for the primary purpose of a democratic party:

The pitch is very protestant, very calm and rational, whilst also very emotive. You don't have to agree but you might consider that I know what I'm talking about here.

It's the same in Britland too. I'll say it in a different way, maybe you'll get what I'm trying to say:The primary purpose of any political party in a democratic state is to uphold democracy.Quite obviously, if we lose a generation, then we will lose our democracy in 30 years or so. So, in order to save and continue our democratic society, we must engage each new generation in democracy. Thus, the primary purpose of our political parties is to engage the youth.

No, I understood the first time, I just disagree, political parties are about common interest and not democracy.

[HoreTore]

No, I understood the first time, I just disagree, political parties are about common interest and not democracy.

But what is most important to our political parties?

Is job creation most important to Labour?
Are lower taxes most important to the conservatives?
Is enviromentalism most important to the greens?

I'd say no; what is most important to all of them is to uphold democracy.


Though this, of course, does not apply to our anti-democratic parties, for obvious reasons. But I don't see why anyone should bother with them...

[drone]

But what is most important to our political parties?

I don't think you really want to know the answer to this question.

[drone]

what is most important to all of them is to uphold democracy.

This is not it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But what is most important to our political parties?

Is job creation most important to Labour?
Are lower taxes most important to the conservatives?
Is enviromentalism most important to the greens?

I'd say no; what is most important to all of them is to uphold democracy.


Though this, of course, does not apply to our anti-democratic parties, for obvious reasons. But I don't see why anyone should bother with them...

No, I dissagree. Political parties exist in non-democratic systems, even "absolute" monarchies. It is only because you live in a democratically governed Constitutional Monarchy that you see democracy as important to political parties, but the mere fact that it is a common concern for Norwegian politicians makes it a non-partisan belief, and therefore of no concern to political parties at all.

It is a concern for Norwegians and Noway's society, but not for its individual political parties.

As I said, political parties exist to advance an agenda, democracy is not on anyone's agenda to advance in Norway.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I picked this quote to jump in because it's typically Scandanavian in many ways, mostly in that it does not hold up for the rest of the world.

The primary purpose of a political party is for like minded politicians to group together in a country's legislature in order to advance a common political program. In forming a political part you are, as agroup, trying to articulate a coherent political vision which both appeals to and benefits the electorate, or at least a portion of it. Engaging the young is about the sustainability of a political project, it is a part of long term stategy, not immediate political objectives.

Now, onto the camps:

Creepy? Not really, when you examine them. Weird? A bit, yes.

This is obviously a Norwegian thing, but it looks to me like "religion", the socialisation of young people into a particular mindset in the same way that Evangelical groups in the UK do outreach. It's actually very similar, camps, songs, debates and talks from eminent guest speakers.

This chimes with my impression of the reaction from Norwegians to the attack, the two words that came up the most were "love" and "forgiveness". The pitch was entirely Christian, but I know Norway is a very secular country with quite low levels of observance, notwithstanding the automatic flocking to the Cathedral in Oslo as a focal point for mourning.

My tentative conclusion is that Norwegians have replaced religion with secular politics in what almost looks like a "bait and switch", which explains why Norway lacks the social vacume of, say, Britain, and why their political engagement is so energetic.

It's not particular to Norway.


All (mainstream) French political parties have active youth movements, and they all go on camp in summer. There is nothing weird, creepy, Hitlerjugend or whatever about this Norwegian youth camp. It is merely the finest workings of the European democratic tradition in action.

French rightwing youth: http://www.jeunesump.fr/
French leftwing youth: http://www.jeunes-socialistes.fr/
Etcetera for dozens more of political persuasions and etcetera for dozens more Western countries. All of their youth movements are out camping this summer. Sometimes just a single party, sometimes several, gathering for 'Student UN', 'Young EU', etc.


The only thing weird here is the fascism of the attacker. It is the old fascist urge rearing its ugly head again. The tendency to regard people of other persuasion as a mortal enemy, to project this onto the other and assume he too is plotting your total annihilation, the idea that only the fascist represents the nation, and that all others are traitors to be fought to death.
The brownshirts are back. This is about intimidating and finally banning any gatherings not belonging to the fascist side. European hardright populism is simply neo-fascism. Useless, the ideology of bitter isolated men with a grudge and an internet connection.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, the real question in the massacre of an island is, "What were they doing on the island?"

[CBR]

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands?

[Fragony]

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands?

It's Norway, the most anti-semite country in the developed world, where even universities boycott anything Israel. Where labour organises youth camps with break-the-blockade games.

Not just Israel;

Question to our American members (the country not the continent, Canada is 100% ok), ever noticed something with teh Vikings. Not Denmark, but with Swedes and Norwegians. Aren't they all saying the same things, and a bit mean in general

Very creepy, stepherd wives society

[Papewaio]

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands?

Possibly because the term youth is generally considered under 18 and younger (it can be under 25 too). So there was a perception that this was political indoctrination of under 18s/

We have similar young politician parties here in Aus. They're university wannabes and a lot of the elected officials come through these organisations and/or the unions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's not particular to Norway.


All (mainstream) French political parties have active youth movements, and they all go on camp in summer. There is nothing weird, creepy, Hitlerjugend or whatever about this Norwegian youth camp. It is merely the finest workings of the European democratic tradition in action.

French rightwing youth: http://www.jeunesump.fr/
French leftwing youth: http://www.jeunes-socialistes.fr/
Etcetera for dozens more of political persuasions and etcetera for dozens more Western countries. All of their youth movements are out camping this summer. Sometimes just a single party, sometimes several, gathering for 'Student UN', 'Young EU', etc.

In "particularly Scandanavian" I was refering to HoreTore's comment. As far as political youth camps, similar things exist in the UK too, though I don't know about residentual "camps" as such there certainly are "youth" movements for particular parties, there's a great picture of William Hague with a mellet at a Young Conservatives rally in the 80's.

To British eyes, however, the fact that underage, non-electors, are present feels are littel wierd.

The only thing weird here is the fascism of the attacker. It is the old fascist urge rearing its ugly head again. The tendency to regard people of other persuasion as a mortal enemy, to project this onto the other and assume he too is plotting your total annihilation, the idea that only the fascist represents the nation, and that all others are traitors to be fought to death.
The brownshirts are back. This is about intimidating and finally banning any gatherings not belonging to the fascist side. European hardright populism is simply neo-fascism. Useless, the ideology of bitter isolated men with a grudge and an internet connection.

This view has nothing to do with Facism, it is a part of most radical revolutionary movements, it manifested in the French Terror and all Communist Revolutions as well as Facist Italy and Nazi Germany. It was more terrible in Soviet Russia and Revolutionary France than Facist Italy, so to describe it as "Facist" is disingenuous, and risks obscurring the real cause of these violent reactions. A lack of compassion on the part of the perpetrator, in the case of mass-movements that adopt this attitude the blame lies also with the target of their hatred who have failed to engage them properly.

[Fragony]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a ?break the blockade? game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active ?youth? part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

And Norway doesn't outright ban certain university's because they are Israeli

[Skullheadhq]

'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I would appreciate it if the use of the word "retard" and its variants was dropped forthwith. It is an ugly and inappropriate word when applied to an opponent or their views.

This is a contentious discussion and will not be helped by personal attacks or lazy generalisations.

Thank you kindly.

[Adrian II]

I would appreciate it if the use of the word "retard" and its variants was dropped forthwith. It is an ugly and inappropriate word when applied to an opponent or their views.

This is a contentious discussion and will not be helped by personal attacks or lazy generalisations.

Thank you kindly.

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

Yes you would, you called me a retard just yesterday.

Typical drivel of a lily-livered lackey of rampant reactionary retardism.

AII

Teh ban! Teh ban!

[Proletariat]

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

Retard, like the word moron, once meant something else, a medical diagnosis. Times and words change and one day the mods will catch up, but by that time you'll be hearing people describe idiots as 'acting like a real beck'. I will never call another orgah a beck either.

[Adrian II]

I will never call another orgah a beck either.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

retard

noun
Pronunciation:/ˈriːtɑːd/
offensive
a person who has a mental disability (often used as a general term of abuse).

Mr Beck may have views with which you disagree, but the use of the word retard to describe him is incorrect and more importantly, offensive. The term does not foster respectful discussion and rapidly migrates from descriptions of public figures to personal attacks on members.

[HoreTore]

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

[Subotan]

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

Precisely, tempted though I was to suggest goosestepping.

[HoreTore]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/...45203a6e_z.jpg

This picture seems to be the source of the OP.

And it also explains the OP's massive and complete fail.


Those people are not AUF-campers - those are members of Sosialistisk Ungdom(socialist youth) - SU - which is the youth party of MY political party, Sosialistisk Venstreparty(socialist left party).

The right-wing blogosphere, determined to show the world that they have no brains, are saying that the picture is from Utøya.

It is not. It is a different party, different people, different political stance, different MO, and actually, its also a completly different location. That boat is not Sailing on Tyrifjorden, that looks more like the coast of southern/southwestern Norway. If I had to guess, I'd say Stavanger.

So in conclusion, this thread is a massive FAIL and should be forgotten.


Some more info on what Utøya is about for you all: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/regard...g-through.html

[Subotan]

So in conclusion, this thread is a massive FAIL and should be forgotten.

Oh of course, but I think that was evident from the start. The thread should not be forgotten though, and I for one intend to refer to it in future discussions on teh Mohammedans in Europe on this board.

[HoreTore]

Oh of course, but I think that was evident from the start. The thread should not be forgotten though, and I for one intend to refer to it in future discussions on teh Mohammedans in Europe on this board.

Well it would of course be amusing to hear how one can fail to spot the big flag in the centre of the pic with SU written on it...

[Tellos Athenaios]

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

Not the PVV one. That was a trick question from Skullhead.