[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[vartan]

@ACS,Vega; Guys, stop whining [...]

Was this really necessary...? I am disappoint.

I could say something but i promised vartan that i will not, this is insulting me and ACS, and you dont have to be genius to win vs spqr like i wasnt when i played with gauls vs boar i atacked cohorts they trows pila and they was in guard mode that was useles cohorts routed after losing 15 men, the fact is that they are bad and slow killers and that symbol of SPQR rout after 10% lost army

I actually explained my analysis of that battle in detail in the Hamachi chat. Firstly, let me correct you in that WorldlyBoar's legions were mostly, if not all, out of guard mode. That's the first thing I looked for when I was reviewing the battle. It was my conclusion that due to a lack of first cohorts and a general, the Roman army was simply asking to have its morale lowered to the point where entire units would rout. It was simply a matter of time until the first routed. After that point, not only do you have a double-scare, but now you lose morale because your brothers-in-arm beside you are running for their lives.

LazyO,TCV; Guys, please, respect the opinions of others, without saying "pathetic" and clapping ironically.
Otherwise you two will do a new edu and only you two will play it.

We want to improve the edu to make it realistic and have fun, every suggestions are precious.

The thing that I'm saying is that some romani units were weakened compared to the original edu.
So I think this is not the right way for having a good balance between factions in game.
This is my suggestion, nothing else.

Romans were strengthened compared to the original EDU. The most important thing is their sword, and that was improved to kill more often (its lethality for instance is improved).

Also, if suggestions are so precious, please reconsider what you think about increasing heavy cavalry mass. Remember, we wish to simulate history better by making the exploitation of heavy cavalry less possible (cannot completely exterminate it). By this we mean to allow a cavalry commander a decisive charge (or two) that really matter, after which point you should not be able to keep hitting and running as if you're running on 500 horsepower. It's a horse carrying kilo after kilo of armour, not a Lamborghini (not that I like Lambos).

What I see, is constant complaining of supposed underpowerement (new word, yay) of Roman Units which does not even exist.

Do you mean to say people may be unintentionally contributing with deception? You need to give the benefit of the doubt and consider that the player is not informed (or has not reviewed) the changes in question. And I think it's underpowerment*

[vartan]

Because I love you guys so much.

[Lazy O]

Yea it was necessary. Like vega complains something is wrong every single match.

[gamegeek2]

The suggested money amount for testing is 40000 mnai. For the new big Tier 2 units, you need it. Also expect an update later today.

First cohorts may seem expensive at first glance; but have a closer look. They not only carry a command eagle, they are veteran versions of regular cohorts; meaning they have superior javelin accuracy and fighting ability. With 16 morale, they are very difficult to rout, and inspire the rest of your army.

Notice also the option of bringing an expensive, but extremely powerful Praetorian unit. With 100 men, they will be the largest elite infantry unit in the game. They cost 3400 mnai but have devstatingly good accuracy with the javelin and excellent skills up close (they have 14 attack/0.15 leth and 29 defense!)

[antisocialmunky]

Would it be possible to make the veteran unit a smaller but veteran version of the 1st cohort? Afterall, they are the super experienced battled hardened guys and they don't seem to play that way in the old EDU.

Praetorians while somewhat historically fanciful are a really devastating assault infantry. As of right now, Rome plays a lot like a faster version of KH.

@TCV. There's a difference between criticizing someone's idea like you and saying your opinion doesn't matter because you write it off as whining. More directed at LazyO than you because you have a point about ACS ignoring you and no one likes that.

[Vega]

I wrote something wrong so i just edited post to you guys dont see it lol P.S gg2 you dont believe me but i like your edu :DD
Maybe some fixing with nietos price :DD

[Scarf]

The Gaulish factions are a bit strange. During a game between me (Romani) and Vega (Aedui) we both couldn't help but think so.
My army had outnumbered them by 400 men or so, my infantry was bringing up a good fight and his cavalry didn't manage to deal much damage either. However, a few dozen seconds after an utterly ineffective charge from his brihentin that only left them surrounded by auxiliary spearmen, my entire infantry line just shattered and routed. It was strange because his army was taking a massive amount of casualties and it said I was winning in every infantry fight.
He explained that this was because of the morale influencing units he was using, and that they were scaring my men.
Now, this just doesn't make sense.
For starters, my infantry was cutting his up pretty good. That would've been a morale booster, I'm sure. By the time my men began to rout, his line was thin compared to mine. Even if there were naked men that were foaming from their mouths or something, the fact is that all the drug-induced rage wasn't saving them. He pointed out he was using chariots, but this made little sense too.
I mean, chariots? Seriously? What is it about chariots that somehow would make them terrifying?
Their effectiveness? Certainly not, they were seen as outdated for a good reason. The horses were vulnerable and they didn't have any way of attacking that cavalry couldn't do better. They were also quite sluggish compared to cavalry
The noise they make? No way. The sound of chariots would probably drowned in the sound of fighting. I don't know how creaking bouncing wheels would make the noise of galloping horses any scarier.
The way they look? Again, I don't see how they'd be scarier than horsemen, I'd be more likely to wet myself and run if I saw some Kataphractoi.
And to top it all off, my men couldn't even see them! They were way behind the enemy infantry! And if they could see them, they'd see that they were just idly standing there!
In other words, my men were scared off by non-combatants.

Another thing is the whole 2hp thing with the Gaesatae. I'd like to ask how their drug rage or whatever it is somehow makes them that incredibly tough? Sure, it would most certainly make them quite brave, but the fact is that they're naked. If they get hit by something, they're probably down. A javelin for example would incapacitate one. It doesn't matter if he doesn't even feel it, the fact is he just got a sharp piece of metal jammed inside him. Something in his body, be it a limb or an organ probably won't work any more and stop him from fighting. He'd probably just be lying around, bleeding and roaring, but he certainly wouldn't be fighting.
In melee combat, they'd probably not fight with too much focus, so I think we could safely assume that there would be many opportunities for a trained soldier to incapacitate them. To me they seem to be a unit that should only be effective if they caught an enemy by surprise.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I've tested the last vers. of edu 3.0, and I've also alredy added it on eb multi edu.
I want to express my satisfaction.
Increasing the shield value, now the romans units work in the right way: more strong in defence.
Then I agree with this changes.

Congrats to GG2.

[gamegeek2]

The Gaulish factions are a bit strange. During a game between me (Romani) and Vega (Aedui) we both couldn't help but think so.
My army had outnumbered them by 400 men or so, my infantry was bringing up a good fight and his cavalry didn't manage to deal much damage either. However, a few dozen seconds after an utterly ineffective charge from his brihentin that only left them surrounded by auxiliary spearmen, my entire infantry line just shattered and routed. It was strange because his army was taking a massive amount of casualties and it said I was winning in every infantry fight.
He explained that this was because of the morale influencing units he was using, and that they were scaring my men.
Now, this just doesn't make sense.
For starters, my infantry was cutting his up pretty good. That would've been a morale booster, I'm sure. By the time my men began to rout, his line was thin compared to mine. Even if there were naked men that were foaming from their mouths or something, the fact is that all the drug-induced rage wasn't saving them. He pointed out he was using chariots, but this made little sense too.
I mean, chariots? Seriously? What is it about chariots that somehow would make them terrifying?
Their effectiveness? Certainly not, they were seen as outdated for a good reason. The horses were vulnerable and they didn't have any way of attacking that cavalry couldn't do better. They were also quite sluggish compared to cavalry
The noise they make? No way. The sound of chariots would probably drowned in the sound of fighting. I don't know how creaking bouncing wheels would make the noise of galloping horses any scarier.
The way they look? Again, I don't see how they'd be scarier than horsemen, I'd be more likely to wet myself and run if I saw some Kataphractoi.
And to top it all off, my men couldn't even see them! They were way behind the enemy infantry! And if they could see them, they'd see that they were just idly standing there!
In other words, my men were scared off by non-combatants.

Another thing is the whole 2hp thing with the Gaesatae. I'd like to ask how their drug rage or whatever it is somehow makes them that incredibly tough? Sure, it would most certainly make them quite brave, but the fact is that they're naked. If they get hit by something, they're probably down. A javelin for example would incapacitate one. It doesn't matter if he doesn't even feel it, the fact is he just got a sharp piece of metal jammed inside him. Something in his body, be it a limb or an organ probably won't work any more and stop him from fighting. He'd probably just be lying around, bleeding and roaring, but he certainly wouldn't be fighting.
In melee combat, they'd probably not fight with too much focus, so I think we could safely assume that there would be many opportunities for a trained soldier to incapacitate them. To me they seem to be a unit that should only be effective if they caught an enemy by surprise.

Be extremely wary whenever you are facing the Celtic factions, as they are able to do a tactic called double-scare. There are two unit attributes that lower enemy morale: frighten_foot/frighten_mounted and druid. Chanting druids lower enemy morale and raise friendly morale; frighten_foot gives a penalty to the morale of nearby enemy infantry (command gives an equivalent bonus). I believe chariots and elephants give an additional penalty but I'm not sure.

There's an additional penalty to morale from a unit being flanked and I think it's even bigger if the unit is attacked in the rear.

I question the 2hp thing for the Gaesatae as well, but I'm not sure how we would compensate for its removal in game balance terms; I'll have to experiment on this when I get to the Germanic naked/elite scary units. Accounts do tell of them ripping javelins out of their bodies, throwing them back at the enemy, and continuing the fight, though.

Also, I am considering giving Kataphraktoi a frighten bonus as well, but I'm extremely loathe to give that to heavy cavalry, as those already murder morale with their charges. I'm definitely considering removing frighten_foot from the Celtic chariots; the scythed ones, however, would keep it because of their murderous scythes at the wheels.

[gamegeek2]

UPDATE: Pontos, Hayasdan, Sauromatae, Pahlava, and Sweboz added. Goidilic and Galatian units also added.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Hooray. Now for Hellenistic factions...

[TheShakAttack]

In defence of restoring AP to Falxmen

I have read the reasoning behind why falxmen have had their AP removed. I completely disagree with these reasons. 2 points have been raised. 1) a falx is not, in fact, armor piercing and 2) it makes falxmen overpowered.

So the points are historic/fact and game-balance based.

I disagree with point 1 because the falx was a very powerful offensive weapon, and the only weapon (in history) that forced the roman army to change armor during campaign. They had to do this to adapt to the devastating cutting force produced by the falx. Though hardly the most reliable of sources, if u look at the wikipedia entry for falx, u will note how devastating it was vs armor, even relatively high quality armor such as Lorica Segmentata. Secondly, i do not understand how a kopis/falcatta (used by various infantry such as Iberian assault, pedites extr.) can be AP, but a falx cannot. it is inconsistent. If u want to give AP only for blunt force weapons, then kopis/falcatta based fighters should also have AP removed.

Regarding the second point, regarding falxmen beingoverpowered.... I cannot comment on how they were being used and how effective they were previously as I have only been playing for a few days. however, you will note that falxmen are very easy to kill- no armor, no sheilds, easily taken down with arrows. They are a specialised unit that can be taken down very easily and cheaply in a specific manner.

Now, regarding how to proceed in a manner which addresses both history and balance...a properly made falx (note, NOT a sica) is likely to have been an expensive weapon, maybe u can increase cost to counter this. or delete falxmen altogether and instead, make Rhomphaiaphoroi AP

The alternative suggestion i have, is to decrease their defense skill significantly. this is because (and i shudder to quote wikipedia)....... "The blade was sharpened only on the inside, and was reputed to be devastatingly effective. However, it left its user vulnerable because, being a two-handed weapon, the warrior could not also make use of a shield. It may be imagined that the length of the two-handed falx allowed it to be wielded with great force, the point piercing helmets and the blade splitting shields - it was said to be capable of splitting a shield in two at a single blow" Decreasing defense skill would address this factual point....they are crazy offense units, but will get killed very quickly, even in melee.

So in conclusion, u are factually incorrect re: the falx as a weapon, and the balance question CAN be addressed in different ways which is consistent with history. The falxmen is a highly charismatic unit, due to its previous (at least in original EDU) status as a papercannon. Now its all paper no cannon. This is most unfortunate.

[gamegeek2]

I have updated the OP with the Ptolemaic, Baktrian, and Seleukid units. I'm sorry I didn't finish the Saka, but it's 2AM here in the USA and I want to get this thing out so that our European players can have a crack at it before I get home later today.

I didn't check it thoroughly because it's so late, and (as always) if you find problems, please inform me as soon as possible. Thanks!

[gamegeek2]

Just updated with a few quick corrections to the Taxilan Agema, Peltastai Indohellenikoi, and AS/Ptolly bodyguards.

[vartan]

Just updated with a few quick corrections to the Taxilan Agema, Peltastai Indohellenikoi, and AS/Ptolly bodyguards.

._. for the first time we have build 0926 and then build 0926a...CORRECTED! hah...when do we expect Saka?

[gamegeek2]

Apparently I didn't upload the right EDU file last time...whoops! It's now up front.

[vartan]

There has been recently some concern over the fact that the Reidonez (Germanic Light Cavalry), according to their current cost, can only be fielded up to a max of 2 due to duplication limits. We will not be reducing their unit size or restatting them. Instead they are an exception to the duplication limit. If you visit the site now at the Rules page you will notice that 4 of them are allowed instead of 2, so they act as if they were within the 2-2.5k cost range.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

What is the concern with Reidonez? That the Sweboz would be too cavalry light?

[gamegeek2]

I have once again updated the EDU without the Saka, because I am frankly concerned about the power level of the Saka were I to stat them right now. I feel further testing is most definitely required before I complete the EDU with this very important faction.

UPDATED 10:52 PM

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I have once again updated the EDU without the Saka, because I am frankly concerned about the power level of the Saka were I to stat them right now. I feel further testing is most definitely required before I complete the EDU with this very important faction.

UPDATED 10:52 PM

For Saka we could do something similar to the Romans and create two eras for them. A "steppe" era for lack of a better term and an Indo-Saka era in which they can recruit the Hellenistic units.
For the steppe era you would have access to only the steppe units such as almost all the cavalry and foot archers but none of the Indian or Hellenistic units. For the Indo-Saka era you would be able to recruit the new Greek and Indian units but there would be a limit on steppe units, maybe none of the Horse Archers since the nobility would either be in the Cataphract units or fighting on foot in the Royal Guard. Unlike Rome's eras, you would have to declare before the battle.

[Lazy O]

Why would I have to declare before the battle? Utter nonsense.

[TheShakAttack]

For Saka we could do something similar to the Romans and create two eras for them. A "steppe" era for lack of a better term and an Indo-Saka era in which they can recruit the Hellenistic units.
For the steppe era you would have access to only the steppe units such as almost all the cavalry and foot archers but none of the Indian or Hellenistic units. For the Indo-Saka era you would be able to recruit the new Greek and Indian units but there would be a limit on steppe units, maybe none of the Horse Archers since the nobility would either be in the Cataphract units or fighting on foot in the Royal Guard. Unlike Rome's eras, you would have to declare before the battle.

Don't be such a silly billy!