[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[gamegeek2]

Now I have recently introduced a new weapon type in the documentation: "Long Short Sword", which however does bear an additional cost compared to the regular short sword but has .01 additional lethality. What I would propose is to treat all Gladii Hispanienses as "Long Short Swords" without any cost increases. This would apply to Romans, the Dunaminaca, and the Elite African infantry, which probably all deserve boosts anyways.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Thorakitai don't need any boost, I was comparing legionaries to them. Thorakitai currently have a 9 defense skill while the legions have a 7. Right now people use legions in guard mode more than they did previously because they are not that great outside of it. I fought a battle against Shak where he placed probably 6 or 7 legions in guard and only used the others as flankers around my phalanx line.

By the way, phalangites are absolutely useless against heavy infantry in guard mode. This is a serious issue for phalanx factions as you can't simply avoid units with phalangites. Does anyone have any ideas on how this may be addressed?

[antisocialmunky]

I have made a script that automatically adjusts unit spacing so they don't spread out any more outside of guard mode.

Here is the edu it generated: http://www.mediafire.com/?hwza386356od4w7

[gamegeek2]

By the way, phalangites are absolutely useless against heavy infantry in guard mode. This is a serious issue for phalanx factions as you can't simply avoid units with phalangites. Does anyone have any ideas on how this may be addressed?

Yeah, even 0.3 lethality does not solve this problem. The thing I can think of is changing phalanxes to spear in primary attributes, which will actually decrease killing power but increase pushing power, if I understand correctly. Either that or we can restore their old mass which was very unrealistic in melee situations with the sword, and which may not do too much to increase push power (but I'm not sure about that either :/).

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Idk, but phalanx could use some serious tinkering with. Me and munkey just had a test battle with various phalangite types against legions who were both in and out of guard mode. Levy phalanx killed about 2-4 legionaries a minute when the Romans used guard mode. :/ Granted they are levies but the pez only did moderately better. Its hard to justify spending 1900 mnai on a unit that is so easily nullified.

[antisocialmunky]

You can get better results if you micro them to walk forward and then stop.

[-Stormrage-]

You can get better results if you micro them to walk forward and then stop.

Or we can fix them, just a suggestion.

[antisocialmunky]

While we are on the subject, are there any ways to bust through guard mode anymore short of getting something that costs 50% more of the guard mode unit?

Somehow it seemed much less of an issue in 2.0.

Edit: I tested high infantry charge values, and if you have really high values around 40-60, you can cause enough initial casualties ( about 5-10) to break through guard mode units. You probably would need it slightly lower through or its not worth defending. Maybe only make it so you have to do 2-3 charges to inflict enough casualties.

Edit 2: Mid 20's seem to be around the amount needed to damage hoplites (without AP of course)

[vartan]

Let's send a petition to CA asking for a patch that improves game mechanics for the phalanx-mode units.

[antisocialmunky]

is it possible to mod phalanx attack speed. If you made it so units could actually get into the pikes a little bit (make it so that better phalanxes make it harder to get into the pikes), then it would fix the problems of the phalanx unable to kill anything and the currently pointlessness of attacking a phalanx. I realize that they are supposed to be hard to kill from the front but currently there is no way to disorganize phalanxes or anything in this game. So instead, make them less invulnerable so people will be willing to invest in attacking them.

[antisocialmunky]

I fail to see how phalanx attack is weak against guard mode when you can do the walk forward/backspace to force your phalanx to engage aggressively...
http://www.mediafire.com/?dt7q5jmcczwxbhk

[vartan]

I fail to see how phalanx attack is weak against guard mode when you can do the walk forward/backspace to force your phalanx to engage aggressively...
http://www.mediafire.com/?dt7q5jmcczwxbhk

The majority of players I've seen don't do this because either it hasn't been suggested to them or they haven't seen it, or something similar, I'm betting.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The majority of players I've seen don't do this because either it hasn't been suggested to them or they haven't seen it, or something similar, I'm betting.

I know this exists but how are you supposed to do this when there is a critical cavalry battle being waged on the flanks?

[gamegeek2]

I know this exists but how are you supposed to do this when there is a critical cavalry battle being waged on the flanks?

Practice your micro. All I can say.

[vartan]

I know this exists but how are you supposed to do this when there is a critical cavalry battle being waged on the flanks?

Just be a boss like the elites among us!

Practice your micro. All I can say.

Basically. I'll look into possible custom scenarios which players can use to practice their micro, although it's going to be hard against AI. Still better off practicing micro against real folk.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Or, just don't pick phalanxes and not have to worry about microing them to death. I mean really, do any of you feel capable of microing a line of 6-7 phalangites against a capable opponent? Maybe if I don't take any cavalry I can, but Hellenistic factions sort of need their cavalry.

[antisocialmunky]

Or don't engage your cavalry until you've engaged the infantry.

[Lazy O]

You do not have the choice most of the time. If you dont move your cavalry and keep microing the infantry, expect lances up your backsides.

[antisocialmunky]

if you can't micro 2 places at once :|

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

if you can't micro 2 places at once :|

...you suck at Starcraft?

I do, thank you very much :)

[antisocialmunky]

...you suck at Starcraft?

I do, thank you very much :)

Lazy O does apparently since he can't multitask apparently :p

[antisocialmunky]

So after playing with Cretans. Is it possible to reduce archer attack to 4.5 ish instead of 6? Roughly a reduction of 25%? 1/2 my shield cav were dead because the cretans could just shoot into the cavalry in melee. :\ It runs counter to your reasoning that arrows couldn't do that much damage back then.

I'd also like to propose differentiating military archers and skirmisher archers/irregulars. One of them should have more ammo and lower accuracy (area of effect fire) with no skirmish while the 2nd category should have lower ammo and higher accuracy and skirmish (skirmishers). This would of course apply more towards the cretan, bosphoran, syrian, persian archer, heavy archer, and the archer/spear units.

Basically not all archers are meant to fire from big giant squares.

[-Stormrage-]

ASM, archers have suffered lower accuracy and cav have recieved higher sheild values, The archers arent OP maybe you just need to learn how to use cavalry.

Thank you for that well reasoned and supported aurgument "oh my cav died too fast can you nerf archers for me , yah thanks."

The Average sheild cav has 7-8 armour and 3 sheild. It more likely tha cav died of old age rather then archers.

[gamegeek2]

ASM, archers have suffered lower accuracy and cav have recieved higher sheild values, The archers arent OP maybe you just need to learn how to use cavalry.

Thank you for that well reasoned and supported aurgument "oh my cav died too fast can you nerf archers for me , yah thanks."

The Average sheild cav has 7-8 armour and 3 sheild. It more likely tha cav died of old age rather then archers.

I agree. Even in the ancient world, it would be more likely to die of old age than die to an arrow.

Personally I think melee-shooting or throwing should be a fairplay infraction. It's hard to prevent, but some other things can be as well, such as accidentally cavcharging through your own men. The ETW engine does a great job of this (almost too good of a job), the RTW engine doesn't.

Should the "skirmisher" units be small in general, and the military archers be the big ones? This seems to be the original goal of EB, but without an accuracy limiter they couldn't have archers be too big without overpowering them. Could you propose some hard numbers?

[vartan]

Personally I think melee-shooting or throwing should be a fairplay infraction. It's hard to prevent, but some other things can be as well, such as accidentally cavcharging through your own men. The ETW engine does a great job of this (almost too good of a job), the RTW engine doesn't.

I can't believe I didn't put that in the fair play rules list. We've been basically using this unwritten rule since I can remember my first multiplayer battle.

EDIT: How would you phrase this fair play rule gg2, or anyone else?

[Cute Wolf]

Let's send a petition to CA asking for a patch that improves game mechanics for the phalanx-mode units.

I don't wish to point out, but it's obvious:

USE ALEX

[Lazy O]

Does not matter shit.

[The Celtic Viking]

I suspect not everyone has alex either anyway.

[-Stormrage-]

Personally I think melee-shooting or throwing should be a fairplay infraction. It's hard to prevent, but some other things can be as well, such as accidentally cavcharging through your own men. The ETW engine does a great job of this (almost too good of a job), the RTW engine doesn't.

I have mentioned this before, I told you about my experience where i had cav fighting a portion of the archer unit andd the rest is shooting like nothing happened, and they're just shaken. This is whats pissing me off, these basic warfare laws that are being broken , I charge light cavalry on completely undefended alone group of archers what happens ? they get shaken . Cavalry riding down archers the archers are shaken . I just want to let you know, because when you ask me Storm why do you hate EB. This is why archers stall cavalry, Very realistic. The Most Basic laws of warfare are upside down here, Ahmed-"but wait he might get cavalry, maybe i should get spearmen ? ", Ali-"oh no man get some archers " , Ahmed-"WHAT!", Ali-" oh yes this EB man, in EB archers fight like infantry, Its the most historical mod out there. "

How to Fix:

I say again, Decrease Archer morale. Decrease Archer morale. Decrease Archer morale.

Now i know gg did take my advice and he did give archers a decrease, thats why they became shaken when i charged them with cav, If they had the old morale they would still be eager. But it wasnt enough, You need to decrease archer morale even more, finish the job you started you got them to shaken get them to rout.
It shouldnt take a cataphract charge to rout archers.

The problems i complain about, are not taken seriously until the problem happens to you then you say hey thats a problem.

EDIT: How would you phrase this fair play rule gg2, or anyone else?

We wouldnt need rules if the archers were just stated correctly. Why make a rule on it when you can stop it from happenning.

Get the Pricing right Get the Budget Balanced, so people cant elite spam and still get a balanced army. Did you know, in this EDU i can get 4 grivs , 5 Pantadapoi (hellenic Phalanx) , 4 persian Archers, 5 Babylonian heavy infantry.

Thats 4 Best cataphracts + 5 phalanx + 5 heavy infantry +4 archers. The problem with the budget is you adjust it to make the players get all 20 units. It was 35000 but it was increased to 36000 , why? so we can get the one extra unit. Thats wrong way to think about it, it should be if you want 20 units then cancel those 8 semi elites or those 6 cataphracts, not "no problem we will raise budget so you can get 8 semi elites and still have money for all 20 units. " It should be "if i want 2 elites i must sacrafice my archer quality, ill get levy archers so i have money for elites.

Right now its a given you have enough money for elites and best archers and good 4 cavalry no problem.


Ill tell you something. You cannot have 100% history alongside with 100% balance. If you aim for 100% historical accuracy it will come at the cost of balance some units wont be balanced .

Historical accuracy and balance conflict with each other, and if you have 50% history and 50% balance then you get a crappy game becuase it only half done , only hald balanced half historical. it as they say sitting on 2 chairs. He who sits on 2 chairs gets his bum sore.

I say get EB as historical as possible . If you want to play Insanely Historical battles then launch EB, IF you want Gameplay balance then launch RSII.
Dont ruin EB by making it balanced leave it do what it does best, History lessons.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

He who sits on 2 chairs gets his bum sore.

A regular Confucius you are, Stormrage.