[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[vartan]

I don't wish to point out, but it's obvious:

USE ALEX

The following is even more obvious: You can't use something you don't own/have. Have a good day.

[Lazy O]

Why have Numidian cavalry been nerfed for apparently no reason?

Why has cavalry penalty for archers been decreased?

Ethiopan Cav secondary attack got a nerf. No price decrease. Why? Same for the Saba Cavalry?

African Elite Infantry GLADIUS was decreased to 0.13 lethality WHY?!?! Are they not shit enough for you?

Many longsword cavalry got secondary attack decrease, they are already crap compared to ap secondary. Why?

Persian Archers got 200 denarii Increase....No stat changes... Whats the problem?

5 less men for Germanic Cavalry yet no price change.

Pheraspidai got a significant nerf. Still cost 2.8k.

Iberian Cavalry falcata is .11 lethality. I MEAN WTF?!?!

Why do so many sword troops got lethality decreased?

Next time save me the trouble of comparing everything, Make a damn list.

[-Stormrage-]

Im going to try a different aproach. Logical thinking, replays, Stats. Reasoning , it doesnt work i tried all of it.

I dont have a problem when someone doesnt take my suggestions, or doesnt implement my suggestions. i have no rproblem with that aslong as he gives me a reason to explain why i am wrong.

I get annoyed why i write an essay explaining my point, providing a replay, stat comparison, and logical thinking. then someone tells me "ok ok i saw you wrote alot so here is what ill do. ill give them +1 defense skill , will that shut you up ? "

and without any reason why my suggestion wont happen, nothing at all. He just gives me a sort of bribe or like when you give a baby a lolipop to get him to stop crying.


Thats why i get annoyed or "pissed off" as some say.
so please im not a baby you dont have to give me a lolipop to make me shut up, just give me a logical reason for why this or that is not happening. and just so you know "it isnt OP" is not a logical reason. especially when i give evidence in my talk about how this thing IS OP, then you reply simply "it isnt OP" like your words are enough to out weigh my whole essay.

Why have Numidian cavalry been nerfed for apparently no reason?

Why has cavalry penalty for archers been decreased?

Ethiopan Cav secondary attack got a nerf. No price decrease. Why? Same for the Saba Cavalry?

African Elite Infantry GLADIUS was decreased to 0.13 lethality WHY?!?! Are they not shit enough for you?

Many longsword cavalry got secondary attack decrease, they are already crap compared to ap secondary. Why?

Persian Archers got 200 denarii Increase....No stat changes... Whats the problem?

5 less men for Germanic Cavalry yet no price change.

Pheraspidai got a significant nerf. Still cost 2.8k.

Iberian Cavalry falcata is .11 lethality. I MEAN WTF?!?!

Why do so many sword troops got lethality decreased?

Next time save me the trouble of comparing everything, Make a damn list.

i think i will copy lazyo he has a good method. i will make my aurgument by putting "why?" at the end. i wont waste my time giving you proof or logic ill just complain .

Archers got accuracy decrease, cavalry got shield increase why ?

Persian heavy archers are lighter then imperial archers but cost the same why ? maybe typo.

some cavalry got 5 sheild, why ? i didnt know roman cohorts rode horses.

saba general 2619 why ? mounted generals are at 1500. Maybe cuz theyre arab their generals are ten times the generals of any other faction

triballi infantry cost 1805, why ? , Triballi infantry must be cheaper or like cohorts.

thessalians why only good stamina ? typo ?

iberian assualt and samnites only 2300/2000 . really ? i can get 15 of those.

im noticing some of these elites are around 2000 minai. How come orca still 2700 ? orca arent that much better then iberian assualt infantry, infact iberians are better they got AP.

romph's still dont have AP, whats up man ?

all units are losing AP, is vega paying you on the side or something ?
cohort price decrease, Ap disappearing.

Indian longbows lost AP , Why ? if you say they are OP i will laugh and get their armour stats, so you laugh with me. 3 armour is OP now ?

im done for now.

EDIT:Romphs 11 attack not AP. No javelin, 25 armour price 2500, Iberian assualts 10 attack AP sword, Ap Javelin, 28 armour price 2300. ???

Lazyo too ? if thats the system around here then who do i talk to make saba stronger ? or should i just give the money to you ?

[The Celtic Viking]

I think you forgot to lower the cost of the Golberi Curoas. They were nerfed the same way as the Bataroas, but unlike the latter still cost 1503 mnai.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

African Elite Infantry needs some sort of boost. They are hardly elites as of the moment and barely suitable as line infantry for their cost.

[Vega]

romph's still dont have AP, whats up man ?

all units are losing AP, is vega paying you on the side or something ?
cohort price decrease, Ap disappearing.

Storm i wil accept it like a joke, well to join this company, i want to say that im not please with new imperials, they are even worse than last imperials, im using polybians to save spqr honour :D lol

[gamegeek2]

I'll respond to all of this when I get home, but from what I see there are several plain untruths right in front of me.

How precisely are the Imperials worse? However I do intend to give their javelins a slight range and accuracy boost. Imperials now are a more elite but smaller version of Marians.

I think I may have intentionally made the mercenary version of the Bataroas cost more, to make it more expensive to bring more of these troops.

But here's a few gems:

im noticing some of these elites are around 2000 minai. How come orca still 2700 ? orca arent that much better then iberian assualt infantry, infact iberians are better they got AP.

Orcas have been described as perhaps the best line-holding elite in the new EDU. They may warrant a nerf fo' crying out loud.

Persian heavy archers are lighter then imperial archers but cost the same why ? maybe typo.

How about that they have 90 men as opposed to 80?

saba general 2619 why ? mounted generals are at 1500. Maybe cuz theyre arab their generals are ten times the generals of any other faction

Because they have 80 men while the mounted generals have 20 men?

all units are losing AP, is vega paying you on the side or something ?

Which units besides some of the two-handers exactly?

iberian assualt and samnites only 2300/2000 . really ? i can get 15 of those.

The current official EBO rules say you can't take more than 4 of either.

Archers got accuracy decrease, cavalry got shield increase why ?

Because slingers archers rendered most light horsemen worthless previously. Sadly, they often still do, but they impose a greater cost on your army to bring generally (at least the former, slingers on the other hand...)

some cavalry got 5 sheild, why ? i didnt know roman cohorts rode horses.

Same shield, same value. The cavalry are easier to hit with the missiles, so they might as well get the same shield value as the infantry. At least, that's how I see it.

For LazyO's point, I may have accidentaly decreased longsword attack instead of increasing it for cav, which is what I intended to do. And I belive I fixed all the 0.11 lethality falcatae. If the Elite African infantry still have 0.13 lethality, my bad; I'll do something about them.

But this:

Pheraspidai got a significant nerf. Still cost 2.8k.

How, precisely, does having the highest javelin accuracy level in this EDU possible, 5 javelins, 63.3 range, and 8 javelin attack, as well as very good stamina + 14 atk/27 defense, count as being nerfed from their previously-unplayable state?

I do think 0.16 lethality is warranted for them, though.

[Lazy O]

Idc about what storm says. What ive said is results of the awesome "compare" feature Notepad++ has

------------------------

Antesigani lost a javelin, no price change.

[antisocialmunky]

Eastern Axes are way to strong against things like legions.

[gamegeek2]

Antesigani lost a javelin, no price change.

I can only really say that this is simply not true. Have a look at the current EDU version:

;240
type roman infantry marian antesignani
dictionary roman_infantry_marian_antesignani ; Antesignani
category infantry
class light
voice_type General_1
soldier roman_infantry_antesignani, 40, 0, 1.1
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 1.4, 2, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 8, 4, javelin_uh, 51.8, 4, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 17, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.15
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 12, 10, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 16, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2551, 790, 50, 70, 2551
ownership seleucid, slave

Let's try another one:

Many longsword cavalry got secondary attack decrease, they are already crap compared to ap secondary. Why?

Current secondary stats of several longsword-armed cavalry units.

Aithiopikoi Hippeis (Tier 2) - stat_sec 12, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
Brihentin (Tier 3) - stat_sec 13, 24, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
Remi Mairepos (Tier 4) -stat_sec 15, 24, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225

Compare with units equipped with the falcata, a weapon that gets no change when mounted other than the standard +2 attack bonus for cavalry.

Cantabrae Eponereidam (Tier 2) - stat_sec 11, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.14
Iberi Curisi (Tier 3) - stat_sec 12, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.14
Ambakaro Epones (Tier 4) - stat_sec 14, 24, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.14

Before the recent updates, the longsword and the falcata were identical except the falcata was 0.14 lethality and AP, and cheaper, while the longsword was 0.225 lethality, non-AP. Now the longsword receives a +1 bonus when used by cavalry.

Incidentally this also proves you wrong about this:

Iberian Cavalry falcata is .11 lethality. I MEAN WTF?!?!

And what's that I heard about elite africans?

African Elite Infantry GLADIUS was decreased to 0.13 lethality WHY?!?! Are they not shit enough for you?

How about you swear about this?

type carthaginian infantry dorkim afrikanim aloophim
dictionary carthaginian_infantry_dorkim_afrikanim_aloophim ; Dorkim Aloopim
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier carthaginian_infantry_elite_african_infantry_dunaminaca, 40, 0, 1.2
officer ebofficer_lusitanian_carthaginian_officer
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 16, pilum, 36.8, 3, thrown, siege, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec 13, 16, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.16
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 12, 9, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental 15, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2042, 511, 90, 130, 2042
ownership egypt

That said about the elite africans, they should have 5 shield and not 2. My mistake on that. I'll upload that fix right away.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Eastern Axes are way to strong against things like legions.

Umm, these units were previously absolutely useless. Isn't the point of light AP units with high defense skill to be useful against some of the more heavily armored non-elites? Because they are useless still against just about anything else, especially if it has one or more longer range javs.

[gamegeek2]

[H]ere's the link to the EDU with the fixes to the Elite African Infantry. (It is also on the OP) http://www.mediafire.com/?vopwwjpedixcovz

Eastern Axes are way to strong against things like legions.

I don't see this complaint about Western European barbarians, but when it comes to Eastern "barbarians" like hillmen, oh no they can't be allowed to do well. Those Eastern axemen are every bit as fierce and "barbaric" and have a much of a warrior culture as the western european barbarians, and this persisted well into the Sassanid era and beyond with the Deylamites.

[antisocialmunky]

The reason I raise it as an issue is that if you take mass axemen, better archers, scary, better cavalry then Rome just isn't going to win.

[gamegeek2]

And fit that into one army? Hmm. Plus I don't think such generalizations are accurate or appropriate at describing how battles play out in EBO.

[antisocialmunky]

The thing is, you can. We had this issue with the 1.0 edu and marian/imperial. While it is actually much better, the 3.0 revision returns things than that 2.0 addressed.

I mean, post-Marian Rome is much better than 1.0 where it died to anyone with cavalry but it still has issues vs AP.

I mean, I can draw a roman army of the same size with +1 chevron eastern axes + levy phalanx. I can use the money I save (as 1.3/1.5 K units average less than 1.65k per unit) to afford better missiles and cavalry so I can just massacre your cavalry. Then you army gets killed by cavalry in the back super fast due to nakeds.

[antisocialmunky]

I'd also like to report that armor upgrades are acting funny. It costs 400 mnai to upgrade a hoplite by +1 armor and less than 100 mnai for my Thorakitai...

Someone mentioned to me that they are allowed now but like I said, it seems to be acting funny.

[Vega]

Umm, these units were previously absolutely useless. Isn't the point of light AP units with high defense skill to be useful against some of the more heavily armored non-elites? Because they are useless still against just about anything else, especially if it has one or more longer range javs.

Robin its not about that axemen its about cohorts, hoplites can easy deal with that axemen, this is sad Rip spqr 20 semptember :((

[vartan]

Robin its not about that axemen its about cohorts, hoplites can easy deal with that axemen, this is sad Rip spqr 20 semptember :((

How? Swordsmen deal with infantry better than spearmen. Hoplites are spearmen, and Roman cohorts are swordsmen. Therefore, Roman cohorts deal with axemen better than hoplites.

[Lazy O]

How many times do you update the damn thing? My statements were based on the EDU you linked to us on hamachi. When I compared that one with the ones you posted yesterday, there were only a few changes. -_-

[-Stormrage-]

Eastern Axes are way to strong against things like legions.

He just doesnt want his legions to get beat up to badly.

Umm, these units were previously absolutely useless. Isn't the point of light AP units with high defense skill to be useful against some of the more heavily armored non-elites? Because they are useless still against just about anything else, especially if it has one or more longer range javs.

You have to notice that this is ASM who is complaining about this, He is a Dedicated Roman player Ofcourse he doesnt want AP units to kill Legions he's Roman.

He isnt arguing about a balance issue, he is fighting for his faction. Please tell me im wrong.

If this was from a non roman it would have more weight.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

He just doesnt want his legions to get beat up to badly.



You have to notice that this is ASM who is complaining about this, He is a Dedicated Roman player Ofcourse he doesnt want AP units to kill Legions he's Roman.

He isnt arguing about a balance issue, he is fighting for his faction. Please tell me im wrong.

If this was from a non roman it would have more weight.

Storm, ASM plays KH almost all the time. As per your request, you are wrong.

[TheShakAttack]

How many times do you update the damn thing? My statements were based on the EDU you linked to us on hamachi. When I compared that one with the ones you posted yesterday, there were only a few changes. -_-

Haha, that's hardly GG2's fault is it? As a beta, it is supposed to be updated regularly, and given GG2 is doing this in his spare time, its bound to be sporadic and piecemeal.

I think the thing you did was very useful (comparing changes and discussing them). You should keep on doing it. Maybe in the future, it'd be helpful for all of us if you indicated which two EDUs you were comparing?

[antisocialmunky]

Guys, guys guys, mind the tone.

Seriously though.

Hoplites die just as badly as legions, a little worse in fact as the axemen definitively win rather than a weird draw slightly in favor of the legion. Not sure where you are getting your statistics from.

So suppose I take 15, 1500 units against Rome and save 250 per unit which ends up being about 2750 mnai. I can spend this towards better missiles (bosphorans) and cavalry so I can beat the Roman cavalry. I just don't think its really playable as Imperial Rome. Though to be fair, the Romans had a crappy time conquering the Pontik and Armenian areas.

However, Peltastai pretty much SPANK every single eastern axeman. I think its more of an issue of Roman legions still not having enough support since KH can deal with AP BS by killing it with javelins (and fire) but Rome can't really afford good support troops as they lack the 'excellent morale' requirement to not break from scary without a chevron.

I'm thinking you need to give them mercenary versions of pretty much all the mercenary light infantry from Western Europe to the Levant. Ironically this includes eastern axes...

[TheShakAttack]

Guys, guys guys, mind the tone.

Seriously though.

Hoplites die just as badly as legions, a little worse in fact as the axemen definitively win rather than a weird draw slightly in favor of the legion. Not sure where you are getting your statistics from.

So suppose I take 15, 1500 units against Rome and save 250 per unit which ends up being about 2750 mnai. I can spend this towards better missiles (bosphorans) and cavalry so I can beat the Roman cavalry. I just don't think its really playable as Imperial Rome. Though to be fair, the Romans had a crappy time conquering the Pontik and Armenian areas.

However, Peltastai pretty much SPANK every single eastern axeman. I think its more of an issue of Roman legions still not having enough support since KH can deal with AP BS by killing it with javelins (and fire) but Rome can't really afford good support troops as they lack the 'excellent morale' requirement to not break from scary without a chevron.

I'm thinking you need to give them mercenary versions of pretty much all the mercenary light infantry from Western Europe to the Levant. Ironically this includes eastern axes...

Correct, axemen are incredibly easily countered. Not just peltastai, but with any kind of missile unit (apart from slingers). There was a game yday where 2 units of axemen were whittled down significantly by a horse archer unit for a pretty large distance (which is surprising since their accuracy is so crap). You don't even really need peltastai. A unit of lowly archers, or akontistai (with a few good throws) can reduce their numbers significantly.

I agree with you about Imperial support troops. The 3 non cav supports are pretty high quality but also high cost troops. The mercs (who are acting as "auxilia" ) tend to be either high quality/cost or low quality/cost. There aren't as many "medium-ish" quality units iirc.

[Lazy O]

Problem is I have absolutely no way of knowing when the EDU is updated. From what gg2 is saying, it appears he updated it some 3-4 times in 1.5 days....... How would I know that im comparing the wrong stuff?

@ASM; Yup, I also petition for them to recieve Alans, Cataphracts, and a special unit wearing Lorica Segmentata that shoots lasers.

[vartan]

Correct, axemen are incredibly easily countered. Not just peltastai, but with any kind of missile unit (apart from slingers). There was a game yday where 2 units of axemen were whittled down significantly by a horse archer unit for a pretty large distance (which is surprising since their accuracy is so crap). You don't even really need peltastai. A unit of lowly archers, or akontistai (with a few good throws) can reduce their numbers significantly.

I agree with you about Imperial support troops. The 3 non cav supports are pretty high quality but also high cost troops. The mercs (who are acting as "auxilia" ) tend to be either high quality/cost or low quality/cost. There aren't as many "medium-ish" quality units iirc.

This is very good gameplay wise because it reminds me of other factions' key units that play important roles and must be used wisely as well as eyed carefully by your enemy lest he wish to lose. What comes to mind immediately is the falxmen, which would be the Getai counterpart...

[Lazy O]

But they suck as anything besides cavalry support :D

[The Celtic Viking]

Problem is I have absolutely no way of knowing when the EDU is updated. From what gg2 is saying, it appears he updated it some 3-4 times in 1.5 days....... How would I know that im comparing the wrong stuff?

Yes, I agree with this. A new post saying "new version, see OP" or something like that would help.

@ASM; Yup, I also petition for them to recieve Alans, Cataphracts, and a special unit wearing Lorica Segmentata that shoots lasers.

While we're at it we should do similar things to the other weaker factions as well, shouldn't we?

[antisocialmunky]

Yes, I agree with this. A new post saying "new version, see OP" or something like that would help.

While we're at it we should do similar things to the other weaker factions as well, shouldn't we?

It would be nice to bump with update EDU rather than only edit OP.

Well I petitioned to get the whole Roman unit roster added to Saba.

[vartan]

It seems like I can't keep up fast enough with gg2. You'll see installer for 3.0 b0919 on site pretty soon...