[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[TheShakAttack]

Hahahaha.

On one hand, I completely agree with your conclusions. On the other hand, I like arguing for the sake of argument, so I will continue this discussion.

First of all, I think you misunderstood the argument re semantics (“ABCD”)- it was restricted to semantics only.

Secondly, I think you are comparing Rome’s “era” limitations inappropriately.

The central thrust is that you have to correctly identify which factions you should compare Saka against.

In the entire game, Rome is the only faction which can feasibly support a clear era division. The Roman roster has been designed to do this specifically by EB team. Further, for gameplay purposes, it is quite feasible due to the enormous (and high quality) roster Rome enjoys. There are no other factions who can support an era division as comfortably as Rome. Their roster has not been purposefully designed. I hope I am not being rude in stating this is obvious. Rome stands in a league of its own and cannot be compared to other factions in terms of ability to support era division.

If you could make new units to add units to Saka’s roster (so as to allow the division into eras to be less painful), then it would be acceptable. But this can’t be done.

What we have instead, is a plethora of other factions who experienced different “eras/evolutions” within the EB time period. Gallic factions, Sweboz, Pahlava, Hayasdan and to a minor extent Sweboz, Carthage and AS. Now, these are the factions Saka should be compared to. Saka roster’s ability to support a division in era is far closer to these factions than Rome. The approach in making rules for these factions should form the basis of how Saka is dealt with (NOT Rome).

If Saka era divide is to be implemented: implement similar restrictions on these factions. If it is historical accuracy one is striving for, then Pahlava, Hayasdan, Gallic factions should suffer under that as well etc. For instance, in your example above, if a Gallic faction is bringing mail clad infantry and the recruitable cav, you should not be allowed to bring in tecitos. But to go to such an extent would be overbearing and unduly restrictive.

Regarding the other point you bring up, about saka getting access to heavy infantry- ive dealt with this earlier, so I wont go into it again.

EDIT: This post is stricly in reply to TCV's post. I didn't see GG2s post right before mine, so it does not refer to him when it says "you".

[vartan]

There is heavy theoretical debate going on right now. So all you Karl Marxes and Young Hegelians, when wilst thou begin the practical side of actually field testing to see what seems intuitively better in practice? o.0 far-fetched suggestion of mine, or perhaps what I would do had I all the time in the world...

EDIT: Other than Rome, which factions of ours actually went country-wide military reforms? I don't know of any. There were changes, of course, and EB team has implemented these. But don't wrongly misinterpret these as systematic military reforms by the state. Life went on as usual. Outside of the SPQR, it was usually a matter of adding on or revising what was fielded before. So perhaps in that sense I wouldn't go so far as division of eras. But that's just more theory! Now, with a division-less Saka...why so worried? Just do some field testing and discover the strategy against them.

[The Celtic Viking]

I'm sorry, Shak (or is that Marx/Hegels? :p), but when I have GG2's attention that takes priority. I hope you can understand. :p

I'm sorry - which questions do you want me to answer? I'd go ahead and answer them, but I'm not on my home computer and don't have the time here to search through the thread and dig up what exactly that was.

Well, I'll go from memory here:

1) Why were the Ordmalica (Goidilic two-handed hammer guys) taken out of the game?

2) The Germanic levies cost very slightly less than Illyrian levies, but are significantly superior. (+2 attack, +3 defence, +3 morale and better stamina.) This despite them also having the same number of men in their units. Is this really correct? If so, how?

3) Gaelaiche are identical to Gaeroas, in cost and stat, except that Gaeroas have a better charge and a longer jav range. Is this correct? It used to be that the Gaelaiche were slightly superior but also slightly more expensive.

4) Golberi Curoas are identical in stats to Bataroas, but still cost 1503 (IIRC) while the latter cost 1472 (again, IIRC). Did you forget to lower their cost? (To anyone who may wonder: this question is very old; indeed, I think it dates back to the very first version of 3.0. The Bataroas/Golberi Curoas had their stats decreased and made identical, but only Bataroas became cheaper.)

5) Is the EDU documentation kept up-to-date? I have come to the conclusion that it is not, but I might as well ask again for confirmation.

Those are it, I guess. However, I can add a few new ones as well, since you've gotten my hopes up ():

6) This new Bosphoran faction within the Sauromatae faction you're planning, what would their general's unit be?

7) In this note, why did some general's bodyguard unit lose their eagles while others retained them?

8) On that note (yeah, I just keep on going!), why did Uirodusios lose their eagles?

That's all I can think of for now. I think. I'll get back if I come up with any more.

Oh, and @Vartan: the Saka roster hasn't been finished, so we can't do any field experiments with them yet. That's why we've kept it on the theoretical battlefield.

[Lazy O]

@Gamegeek2; I think fighting for ones life is motivation enough. Since these are not some random levies picked up and thrown into battle without any preparation whatsoever. Are the normal greek hoplites not fighting for some random general they could not care less about?

[gamegeek2]

1. The Ordmalica were, it seemed, a rather gross inaccuracy, much as the Merjoz of old. One could argue the same for several of the Goidilic units, but I decided, for now, just to remove one offender.

2. The Germanic levies are intended to be significantly superior to any other levy with comparable equipment - as are the celtic ones. I may make the Illyrian levies stronger, good thought.

3. As of right now, the Gaeroas have better charge and javelin range while the Gaelaiche have better morale. I think I differentiated them this way arbitrarily just to make them different, when I should just make them identical to each other; or, even better, I could get a better proposal from one of you guys (which is what I really want).

4. I think I intended for the mercenary version to be more expensive, but this wasn't done systematically, so I should probably change it.

5. The documentation is mostly up-to-date. I intend to expand upon it in later updates.

6. I'd probably give the new Bosporan faction either the Aeldary Ambaltae (albeit with unit size re-reduce) or perhaps I'll give the Hellenistic Mercenary General better stats, the standard general unit size, and other perks and make that their bodyguard.

7. Which ones lost their eagles?

8. Why should Uirodusios have an eagle? It's a bunch of naked fanatics - scary opponents, but I don't think they'd inspire you on much, like a general would.

[Arjos]

About eagles, wouldn't foot nobles or agema or royal guards inspire troops?

[antisocialmunky]

I dunno, foot guards didn't keep the rest of the army from cheesing it at Pydna.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

7. Which ones lost their eagles?

8. Why should Uirodusios have an eagle? It's a bunch of naked fanatics - scary opponents, but I don't think they'd inspire you on much, like a general would.

Gallic generals are missing the eagle.

As far as Uirodusios and eagles, I believe that seeing members of your own tribe willing to fight naked was considered by the Gauls a great sign of bravery and inspired them to fight on as they would want to match their comrades. This is different from the Gaesatae who were from a separate tribe and were hired as mercenaries by Gallic leaders.

[antisocialmunky]

Does anyone know what the crap warcry even does?

[The Celtic Viking]

1. The Ordmalica were, it seemed, a rather gross inaccuracy, much as the Merjoz of old. One could argue the same for several of the Goidilic units, but I decided, for now, just to remove one offender.

2. The Germanic levies are intended to be significantly superior to any other levy with comparable equipment - as are the celtic ones. I may make the Illyrian levies stronger, good thought.

4. I think I intended for the mercenary version to be more expensive, but this wasn't done systematically, so I should probably change it.

5. The documentation is mostly up-to-date. I intend to expand upon it in later updates.

6. I'd probably give the new Bosporan faction either the Aeldary Ambaltae (albeit with unit size re-reduce) or perhaps I'll give the Hellenistic Mercenary General better stats, the standard general unit size, and other perks and make that their bodyguard.

Thank you.

3. As of right now, the Gaeroas have better charge and javelin range while the Gaelaiche have better morale. I think I differentiated them this way arbitrarily just to make them different, when I should just make them identical to each other; or, even better, I could get a better proposal from one of you guys (which is what I really want).

Is this a change you made with the very last update? It was not so when I (originally) asked that question, but maybe that's changed. I'll check it again later today. Personally I think we should keep the Gaelaiche slightly superior to the Gaeroas, as they are reform units from Transalpine Gaul while the Gaeroas are "basic" Cisalpine Gauls.

Perhaps making Gaeroas better able to skirmish (i.e., not make them outright skirmishers, but better at filling in that role) while the Gaelaiche are better melee fighters is a reasonable distinction. This because the Gaeroas' description outright says they can be used as "impromptu skirmishers" - while already true, they could be made superior to other units like it. It's an idea.

7. Which ones lost their eagles?

The Brihentin have, as Robin said, lost their eagles. I *think* the Somatophylakes Strategou also have. I can check out more completely later today.

Edit: no, the SS were fixed now; only Brihentin generals still lack eagles of the "playable" factions.

8. Why should Uirodusios have an eagle? It's a bunch of naked fanatics - scary opponents, but I don't think they'd inspire you on much, like a general would.

I think Robin's correct, but I can't help think that it has something to do with the Uirodusios' association with Casse as well. Their rampant hero worship, and general fighting doctrine, seems to indicate to me that someone fighting naked would be one of such leaders in their army, rather than one of the followers.

[Arjos]

I wanted to ask, purely on a technological side, were the Kretikoi bows so advanced? Shouldn't they be quite inferior compared to eastern and steppe ones?